In harassing a Red-bellied Snake shamelessly for photos recently, I had the opportunity to capture its lip-curling behavior in pixels. I'll admit I'd never thought too much or too deeply about it before, or even during the session. I just kind of accepted it as this little quirky defensive thing; kinda dumb, really, but whatever works.
But as I was later sifting through the photo series for processing, not really trying to solve a problem or thinking about anything too much at all, one serendipitously-timed photo just absolutely slapped me flat in the face!!! (I've posted it below with the particular feature that caught my attention highlighted.) And, BAM!, suddenly this mysterious lip-curling behavior made perfect sense to me. It was a genuine AHA moment.
I later did a little google search and read some of the top results describing the lip-curling behavior as "bizarre", "strange", "quirky", etc., like, it's just a thing... Most made no attempt to really explain how it worked defensively, a couple implied or stated it was a visual warning, but one did suggest the snake would rasp its teeth across a persecutor, which is the closest to my own hypothesis. I also did a superficial search on google scholar and saw some technical papers mentioning it, but I admittedly haven't dug into those.
I'm certainly not claiming to have figured out something that no one else has ever figured out before, but that I figured it out for myself, quite fortuitously. Which was kind of cool, to me. Well, it's still a working hypothesis.
Not to leave people hanging, I'll chime in with my explanation shortly, but I am curious to hear from others first:
1) What do you know, if anything, about existing explanations for the behavior?...something beyond "it's for defense".
2) What do you make of the photo below in relation to lip-curling behavior?
Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
Moderator: Scott Waters
- kaptainkory
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Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
I love these kinds of mysteries.. it makes me think that if the snake were seized by a predator, it might have a better chance at getting a jab in and extricating itself lashing back and forth, especially in the plant debris and muck - with no clearance for striking out. Its also less committal in a risk sense, to not connect to an animal trying to eat you when your small.
Am I warm?
Am I warm?
Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
thinking on it a little more, it seems a much more efficient use of energy to use a jabbing or raking opportunity simultaneous with motions of escape, than ineffectively holding ground and striking at a predator when one is relatively diminutive.
Anyway that's my ponder
Anyway that's my ponder
Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
Cool photos. I've had them rake against me when lip curling before. No thoughts on it being anything more than a defensive behavior.
- Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
Cool observation! If you haven't seen it, this paper might help with your hypothesis:
do Amaral, J. P. S. 1999. Lip-curling in redbelly snakes (Storeria occipitomaculata): functional morphology and ecological significance. Journal of Zoology 248:289-293.
do Amaral, J. P. S. 1999. Lip-curling in redbelly snakes (Storeria occipitomaculata): functional morphology and ecological significance. Journal of Zoology 248:289-293.
- Rich in Reptiles
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Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
That is so cool! I was looking through flickr the other day and came across this photo- https://www.flickr.com/photos/47745688@N05/14460345660/ I didn't think much about it until now. Are they mildly venomous like Tantilla and Diadophis? Reminds me of the African stiletto snakes!
Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
Research articles make the hard vertebrae of knowledge, and discussing them the living muscle and kinesis of forums like this. Its the most exciting thing that can happen to a curiousity, to become synergy, among like minded seekers.
Those little Storeria are alot more gangsta than our Contia
add edit* i would imagine that a little luck and a good shot to an eye orb would be one of the only things that could make a frog let go of such a great worm
Those little Storeria are alot more gangsta than our Contia
add edit* i would imagine that a little luck and a good shot to an eye orb would be one of the only things that could make a frog let go of such a great worm
Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
I would imagine that due to the size of potential assailants, opening the mouth wide enough to elicit a bite is difficult if not impossible for this diminutive animal. By curling the lips and exposing the teeth, it has a chance to jab the assailant with these teeth and inflict a small amount of pain, potentially enough that it can be dropped and have a chance at escape.
Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
Can most non-lip-curling snakes visibly see their target during a typical open-mouth strike? It would also be interesting to see if there is any control/aiming involved in the raking motion of lip-curling snakes, or if they just flail and get lucky shots sometimes.
Jeff
Jeff
- kaptainkory
- Posts: 187
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Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
Exactly! Though less developed in Red-bellies--or perhaps more developed in their ancestry?--this was the same analogous example that came to my mind. They really froth up the saliva, too, and swipe from side-to-side...suggesting an attempt to pierce and deliver toxic saliva with those back stabbers; possibly also scraping with the other teeth.Rich in Reptiles wrote:Reminds me of the African stiletto snakes!
I'm dismissing that "glaring their teeth" just for show has much to do with it.
Pretty sure so.Rich in Reptiles wrote:I didn't think much about it until now. Are they mildly venomous like Tantilla and Diadophis?
Terrific! The online abstract sounds like this really hits on it.Bryan Hamilton wrote:do Amaral, J. P. S. 1999. Lip-curling in redbelly snakes (Storeria occipitomaculata): functional morphology and ecological significance. Journal of Zoology 248:289-293.
Great insight about how this could legitimately increase the chance for survival.Kelly Mc wrote:i would imagine that a little luck and a good shot to an eye orb would be one of the only things that could make a frog let go of such a great worm
Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
KaptainKory this was a wonderful thread about these guys, and could open up into other similiar tactics used by snakes. I loved your opening presentation of this so exciting and inviting.
Agreement in cant really see veracity to it being a baring of teeth display. Its too mammalian of a perception.
Also in regards to the actual delivery, it may perhaps be less hit or miss than we speculate, as our dominate pathways as bipeds default readily to Sight when it comes to Aim, but snakes are acutely tactile, and coordinative defense mechanisms may not include needing to see the source of adverse stimuli at all.
I think of times ive been musked by snakes, sometimes curling and smearing with an evolved assertiveness, and rubbed or sawed extremely well by certain lizards tails, parts of my hand, arm they werent able to see.
I remember the first snake I ever found as a child. It was the most beautiful thing I ever saw. A tiny, deliberate poke I felt in my seven year old palm. It was a remarkable tiny pain.
Agreement in cant really see veracity to it being a baring of teeth display. Its too mammalian of a perception.
Also in regards to the actual delivery, it may perhaps be less hit or miss than we speculate, as our dominate pathways as bipeds default readily to Sight when it comes to Aim, but snakes are acutely tactile, and coordinative defense mechanisms may not include needing to see the source of adverse stimuli at all.
I think of times ive been musked by snakes, sometimes curling and smearing with an evolved assertiveness, and rubbed or sawed extremely well by certain lizards tails, parts of my hand, arm they werent able to see.
I remember the first snake I ever found as a child. It was the most beautiful thing I ever saw. A tiny, deliberate poke I felt in my seven year old palm. It was a remarkable tiny pain.
- PsychedelicTarantula
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Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
Congrats on making the Reptile Report!
- Kevin Messenger
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Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
some of the behavior I've observed:
redbelly smile by Kevin Messenger, on Flickr
IMG_5624 small by Kevin Messenger, on Flickr
redbelly smile by Kevin Messenger, on Flickr
IMG_5624 small by Kevin Messenger, on Flickr
- salamanderhunter
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Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
The lip curling behavior might be analogous to gaping in green snakes. They open their mouth to expose the black interior...and that's it. No attempt to bite.
Re: Red-bellied Snake Lip-Curling Behavior
The design looks more function than flash. I don't think frogs, birds, turtles and other snakes that would target them as prey items recognize 'bared teeth' as a threat.
It may give us that impression but I think its more likely an ergonomic facilitation for defense rather then a visual posture.
It may give us that impression but I think its more likely an ergonomic facilitation for defense rather then a visual posture.