Questions from your President

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ZantiMissKnit
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Questions from your President

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

It's been a little slow here lately (hopefully because everyone is having such a great time outside), but I don't want anyone to think I'm not around for the chapter.

What can I do to bring together the chapter, as a group? I know we are all too scattered to meet up other than the annual chapter trip, but I want to encourage old and new members alike to keep posting.

Is anyone doing anything they'd like the rest of us to know about? Any positive experiences talking about herps with the general, non-herping public? Have you taken part in any local conservation efforts?

If you have any concerns or comments about areas that need improvement under my watch, I'm open to them.

-Andrea
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by The Jake-Man »

I rarely post in the Northeast Chapter Forum any more for a few reasons.

The first is that it has simply already served its purpose for me. When I first stumbled across the forum, I wanted to get to know the herpers that lived near me, and I did, in a way. I realized that there really aren't any forum members or NAFHA members that live near me. Sure, 1-2 hours away there's Brick911, Kyle Loucks, and others, but organizing trips and getting to meet people in person can be a pain when you live that far away, not to mention the fact that the average herper is pretty busy with normal life anyway.

Another reason I have become inactive on the forum, and in the world of the NAFHA and NAHERP, is the beginning of PA's herp atlas. Through the Pennsylvania Amphibian and Reptile Survey, I have met numerous local herpers that I otherwise would not have encountered through the forum or NAFHA. The diverse atmosphere of PARS has led me to a lot of great opportunities and people, and has kept me busy doing surveys on private land and chasing down more volunteers in my home county.

Also, as much as I hate to say it, I think Facebook is swiftly filling the role of both the forum and NAFHA. Why associate yourself with a large group of people, (some of whom you may wish you weren't associated with), when you could instead communicate, share finds, and network with other herpers faster and more conveniently on Facebook? Last year I spent about 4 hours putting together my end of year post, sorting and narrating photos. The end result was about a half-dozen comments saying "Nice", or "Cool." It's just not worth the effort for me to put together posts anymore. Don't get me wrong though, I am not disparaging the forum, NAFHA, or any other person or entity that is easily offended.

In the end, I'm not concerned in the least over the decline in activity in the NE chapter, simply because it doesn't indicate a decrease in the numbers or commitment of herpers in the Northeast. I think many people, myself included, have realized that they can meet people, educate the public, and become involved in local conservation efforts without NAFHA.

For me personally, I don't think there's anything more that the chapter could do to increase activity. All forms of social media eventually see a gradual decline in participation.

One positive to take from this- the posts I've read on here, the people I've met through the forum and NAFHA, and everything I've learned since finding the forum- have pushed me towards a career in conservation. What I once thought was an unattainable goal, (becoming a wildlife biologist or herpetologist), I've learned is well-within my abilities, thanks to the forum and the people I've met.
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cbernz
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by cbernz »

Jake, the post you just wrote is a good example of the type of thing that is easier to communicate on a forum like this than it is on Facebook. Facebook is great for slapping up a quick photo or two (at reduced quality) and/or a couple brief lines of text, but it's not a great place to write extended thoughts and carry on long-term conversations, because old posts get pushed down the page, and as far as I know they aren't searchable like they are on here. The real plus of Facebook, as you mention, is the ease and speed of communication - since so many people are on Facebook constantly, you can talk with people practically in real time. So for me, this forum is the best place to have long conversations and write multi-paragraph posts that you will want to re-visit multiple times, Facebook is the best place to do the "I'm in ____, does anyone want to meet up with me?" kind of post, and for photos and trip reports, you could probably go either way.

As for me, I've done very little herping since the chapter trip - mostly teaching my kids proper frog-handling techniques in our vernal pools. I've spent most of my nature time this summer photographing moths. I have CFL and incandescent blacklights on my deck, and I also have a moth lighting setup in my backyard which I turn on occasionally. A few highlights:
Pink-shaded Fern Moth:
Image
Eyed Baileya:
Image
Orange-headed Epicallima:
Image
Dot-lined White:
Image
Peachtree Borer:
Image
Waved Sphinx:
Image

Here's more: http://www.pbase.com/cbernz/inbox
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by Mike VanValen »

The Jake-Man wrote: Also, as much as I hate to say it, I think Facebook is swiftly filling the role of both the forum and NAFHA.
This is true. In all honesty, NAFHA only exists within these forums, on facebook, and the occasional trip/meeting. When HERP separated I as afraid we would have a hard time fleshing out the association, and I was correct. 2014 is half way over and we're still mulling over by-laws....
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

Thank you all for your honesty and candor. I am with cbernz in thinking that the forum is better for longer posts and conversations. Don't get me wrong, I love Facebook and am on it constantly, but there are a few times where the forum has it's advantages: being able to find your own posts and (from a moderation standpoint) being able to sticky more than one thread (Facebook groups only allow one sticky at a time).
Mike VanValen wrote:
The Jake-Man wrote: Also, as much as I hate to say it, I think Facebook is swiftly filling the role of both the forum and NAFHA.
This is true. In all honesty, NAFHA only exists within these forums, on facebook, and the occasional trip/meeting. When HERP separated I as afraid we would have a hard time fleshing out the association, and I was correct. 2014 is half way over and we're still mulling over by-laws....
Mike, this is exactly what has been bothering me. I still support HERP, and still encourage others to do the same, as well as to support Herpmapper and any other database of their choosing.

I appreciate that the PA folks are doing so much work for PARS, as I'm a firm believer in supporting local and PARS seems to be doing excellent work. I'd love to hear of other local endeavors in the NE states.

In all honesty, I think Bob is really a hard act to follow with regards to the Presidency, and I think Kyle was probably a hard act to follow before him. I'm still a relative newcomer to NAFHA and FHF (joined in September 2012!), and I really appreciate the mentoring I got from both of them. I was made to feel welcome right away, and I got comfortable very quickly.

If anyone isn't in the Facebook group, and wants to be, here is a link to it: https://www.facebook.com/groups/nafhanortheast/

It is really lively there, and it has replaced the forum, just as Instagram will probably replace Facebook.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by hellihooks »

Pardon my 'barging' but I thought I might apprise you all about something we're trying here in Ca, regarding facebook and Nafha/HERP. My local facebook page opened an account at HERP, and several Nafha members (myself included) review and submitt data on behalf of our group.
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=19884
This could well be the/a new paradigm in data collection.... seems to be working Great, out here. :thumb:

In addition to our annual data contests, based on numbers alone, we've also started a 'BEST Entry' contest, for the most complete data sets on unusual finds/behaviors... which ANY member has a shot at winning, by submitting ONE really awesome record... :thumb: cyaaaaaaaa... :D jim
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pete
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by pete »

The only education related thing I've done is keep my West Indian co-workers from killing snakes. They either would swing a shovel or run screaming from the offending serpent. I've been letting racers and garters chew on me in front of them so they can see there is no venom. Now they just yell " HEY CRAZY MON GET THIS F#€%IN SNAKE AWAY FROM ME". A huge victory in my eyes.
semasko
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by semasko »

I agree that forums are easier for having longer discussions, which is why I joined this board and made the post about road cruising for copperheads. I try sometimes to spark discussions on facebook comments but it never really works out. My fear is that people coming into this are too concerned about how many species they can find, photograph, and post on social media asap and forget about natural history. I know it's counter-intuitive to the above contest idea, but it doesn't have to be that way. You could make a contests based on these types of questions maybe.
MCHerper
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by MCHerper »

semasko wrote: My fear is that people coming into this are too concerned about how many species they can find, photograph, and post on social media asap and forget about natural history.
I agree. There have been times where posts on here could have taken a turn towards a good discussion but they simply fizzled out. These in-depth discussions really benefit the newer guys like myself who are always interested in learning from the more experienced folks on here. That is why I joined this forum, because of the amount of knowledge on this board.

The view to post ratio on the threads always looks high to me. I really wonder if there is a culture of suspicion of others among herpers, and if that culture of peer suspicion will ever soften? It seems like there are a few very knowledgeable herpers on this forum who are happy to share their knowledge with the public at nature centers and other locations for herp-related talks, yet will not readily engage in more in-depth teaching and sharing of knowledge with people who are new herpers or already somewhat knowledgable. It's strange. I want to add that I've had the pleasure of meeting and PM'ing with several really cool people from this forum and my post above was not directed toward them, but either I am paranoid or I have seen enough evidence of this type of cultural norm on here from others. I would be happy to find out that I was incorrect.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by Mike VanValen »

The more experienced folks have seen the problems associated with sharing too much info on the forums, myself included. I bring to attention the unfortunate incident from a few years back where a forum member gained the confidence of a few folks, then went on to poach eastern massasauga from spots they were shown. (I believe in a state where they are endangered, or in Canada where they are threatened).
MCHerper
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by MCHerper »

Mike VanValen wrote:The more experienced folks have seen the problems associated with sharing too much info on the forums, myself included. I bring to attention the unfortunate incident from a few years back where a forum member gained the confidence of a few folks, then went on to poach eastern massasauga from spots they were shown. (I believe in a state where they are endangered, or in Canada where they are threatened).
Hi Mike, I think that any herper would understand the importance of such discretion. My post was more in the spirit of sharing knowledge about the natural history of the species, behaviors or adaptations that may make a species of interest unique. A hypothetical example might be, newer herper #1 states "yeah this dusky salamander wouldn't hold still long enough for me to take a good picture-it actually jumped a few times" and herper #2, being more experienced, shares some tidbits about the fact that duskies lack the skin secretions of many salamanders that make them unpalatable, and the jumping, flailing and occasional biting are adaptations to compensate for this. More info may be shared about granular glands, tail autotomy, etc. This may be 'old hat' for the more knowledgable herpers but it really benefits the new guys, and I believe that it adds a level of respect and appreciation for the specimen to understand its behavior, adaptations, natural history, etc. I guess I am speaking more for myself but this is the stuff that I love. Just my $0.02.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by Mike VanValen »

MCHerper wrote: Hi Mike, I think that any herper would understand the importance of such discretion. My post was more in the spirit of sharing knowledge about the natural history of the species, behaviors or adaptations that may make a species of interest unique. A hypothetical example might be, newer herper #1 states "yeah this dusky salamander wouldn't hold still long enough for me to take a good picture-it actually jumped a few times" and herper #2, being more experienced, shares some tidbits about the fact that duskies lack the skin secretions of many salamanders that make them unpalatable, and the jumping, flailing and occasional biting are adaptations to compensate for this. More info may be shared about granular glands, tail autotomy, etc. This may be 'old hat' for the more knowledgable herpers but it really benefits the new guys, and I believe that it adds a level of respect and appreciation for the specimen to understand its behavior, adaptations, natural history, etc. I guess I am speaking more for myself but this is the stuff that I love. Just my $0.02.
Apologies for misunderstanding your post. I agree with you on this and I, personally, educate as much as possible. However, there must be a balance between guidance and letting people "get their feet wet." The internet age has made herping easier for all of us (and I would never deny that I have used the internet to my advantage), but there seems to be a crop of newb herpers (young, old, whatever) who have developed the "fast food" mentality....
semasko wrote: My fear is that people coming into this are too concerned about how many species they can find, photograph, and post on social media asap and forget about natural history.
The learning process is being lost. When someone shows you everything, tells you what board to flip, what road to cruise, what time of night to go out, etc., etc.....what's the point?

When I was vice president of this chapter, I envisioned the chapter becoming an educational hub for the Northeast ; a "jumping off" point for people new to this. NOT everything on a silver plate, but encouragement to research and build your skill. I have seen it evolve over the past few years to the point where people feel entitled to be given specific information because they "don't have time to do the research" :roll:

Maybe I'm behind the times? I don't know...but I've worked my ass of for every single species I have found in Connecticut, and elsewhere and when I first started on these forums 8 years ago I foolishly expected people to tell me exactly where to go on my first Pine Barrens trip. Other than a few general basics, they didn't. And you know what? I am glad they didn't because I got skunked big time and consequently spent an entire winter researching and reading, and went on to find my very first pinesnake without anyone telling me where to go, or what junk pile to check. I earned it with blood, sweat, and tears the old-fashioned way. I grew to appreciate the Northern Pinesnake and the process it takes to find them.

I've seen the shift from forums to facebook, and while there are still quality discussion to be found, the majority of groups have become "look at what I found!" without really ever knowing the natural history of the species or having really ever earned the stripes. So, I kind of threw my hands up. Walking from your car to a junk pile is not field herping in my book!

Those who want to learn the right way can seek us out, and those who want directions to a junk pile will unfortunately find that as well.
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kyle loucks
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by kyle loucks »

If it were just as easy to post photos here as it is on FB... Still a member of NAFHA, still a member of HERP and will always submit records to the database. Requests still come in so there is a use for our citizen science.
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

Mike VanValen wrote:

The learning process is being lost. When someone shows you everything, tells you what board to flip, what road to cruise, what time of night to go out, etc., etc.....what's the point?

When I was vice president of this chapter, I envisioned the chapter becoming an educational hub for the Northeast ; a "jumping off" point for people new to this. NOT everything on a silver plate, but encouragement to research and build your skill. I have seen it evolve over the past few years to the point where people feel entitled to be given specific information because they "don't have time to do the research" :roll:

I love researching stuff...online and hands on. Our average trips last about 6-7 hours in the field, with a couple of stops to rest and have lunch/a snack. Sometimes we're lucky; sometimes (many times) we're not. Mike H and I have gotten a reputation for being excited for even the most common species; I don't think people outside of the state (or New England, for that matter) realize how hard-earned every garter snake is. We had an after-work jaunt a few weeks ago that didn't produce any herps at all -- in a place that usually produces something. We didn't even hear a frog call.

Your comment about the educational hub for the Northeast is EXACTLY what I would like for this Chapter. I'd really love for people to just get out there and look -- try out new spots without asking first if it's worthwhile. Even if you don't find anything, appreciate the fact that you are outdoors. Observe the non-herp life you see; see what sort of habitat you are in and then research to see what herps use that habitat.

Accept that sometimes you can do absolutely *everything* right and still come up empty (ask me about my hunt for eastern box turtles).
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by Mike VanValen »

Getting skunked was part of the learning process. It made me take notice of weather patterns, water quality, wind, sun angles, moon phases, vegetation, etc. These are all important pieces of the puzzle. I just find it frustrating when I see this new way of field herping being encouraged. I've seen people quit after an hour of not seeing a snake on the road, or after not finding anything under 2 boards. :roll: ...and this is because, when they first started, someone showed them where everything was and they didn't have to work for it.

But I've de-railed this topic, so this was my last rant here!
MCHerper
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by MCHerper »

ZantiMissKnit wrote:
I love researching stuff...online and hands on. Our average trips last about 6-7 hours in the field, with a couple of stops to rest and have lunch/a snack. Sometimes we're lucky; sometimes (many times) we're not. Mike H and I have gotten a reputation for being excited for even the most common species; I don't think people outside of the state (or New England, for that matter) realize how hard-earned every garter snake is. We had an after-work jaunt a few weeks ago that didn't produce any herps at all -- in a place that usually produces something. We didn't even hear a frog call.

Your comment about the educational hub for the Northeast is EXACTLY what I would like for this Chapter. I'd really love for people to just get out there and look -- try out new spots without asking first if it's worthwhile. Even if you don't find anything, appreciate the fact that you are outdoors. Observe the non-herp life you see; see what sort of habitat you are in and then research to see what herps use that habitat.
I think that this is the way that it should be. We should get excited about the most common species because we have the most opportunity to observe and learn about them and use them as 'anchor' species to compare and contrast the less common species to. Common species are the best springboards for learning, I think. Also, your comment about getting out there and looking, I agree wholeheartedly. I would much rather be a somewhat competent and well-rounded naturalist, and understand the abiotic factors that shape ecosystems, than be a herper who just randomly checks here and there without understanding the habitat that they are found in and why. I'm not just trying to be a 'yes guy', I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying and these are the practices that I have when I go out into the field with my sons.
Mike VanValen wrote:Getting skunked was part of the learning process. It made me take notice of weather patterns, water quality, wind, sun angles, moon phases, vegetation, etc. These are all important pieces of the puzzle. I just find it frustrating when I see this new way of field herping being encouraged. I've seen people quit after an hour of not seeing a snake on the road, or after not finding anything under 2 boards. :roll: ...and this is because, when they first started, someone showed them where everything was and they didn't have to work for it.

But I've de-railed this topic, so this was my last rant here!
Why is this your last rant here? I like what you have to say and would like to hear more of it. I also agree with what you and Andrea are saying and I am on board completely if the culture of the Northeast chapter begins to move in this direction.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by Mike VanValen »

MCHerper wrote:
Why is this your last rant here? I like what you have to say and would like to hear more of it. I also agree with what you and Andrea are saying and I am on board completely if the culture of the Northeast chapter begins to move in this direction.
It's my last rant in this thread. Trust me, I will break out a rant from time to time!
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by mikez »

It's sad an unfortunate but undoubtedly true that sharing too much caused trouble.

Even so, having come up in the 90s, through the old style BBS, KS for one but also some fishing boards, I still can't get used to the attitude I see today. We shared so much, helped each other so much, made so many good friends, not like today.
What irks me is the current generation young folks that were playing with their Tonka trucks when we were figuring out what a forum was and how to make it work. We showed them everything thing, even how to use the web to look stuff up. Now they scold an ole guy like me and talk down and tell me how I should herp and how I should post about herping. Got no tolerance fer dat.
At my age, after all these years, really burns my azz to be called out for posting a location for, say, an eastern milk on public land. Gimme a break. Poachers, yah, bad folks, yah, but come on, it's gotta make sense.

One of the worst thing I think is the desire that seems to exist to make this "group" some sort of quasi-academic/scientific endeavor. The need to cozy up to the real academic community, and worse, state agencies, has changed the feeling of the forums and discourages the old style laymen who learned long ago what "They" think of our "Hobby".

I really just want to see cool pics, hear cool stories, get help when needed and offer help when asked. Not interested in counting stuff, especially not interested to hear others count stuff. I don't mistake myself for a scientist nor mistake my hobby activities for scientific endevors.
I still check the forum like once a month after being away for a couple years but rarely find much to hold me.

Sorry, don't mean to burn what little bridge I had left, I know my input here some would prefer to live without. But, you asked,...
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

mikez, the not posting of specific locations is in the terms of usage for FHF. If you or anyone else wish to disclose information off this forum, or off the chapter's Facebook page, you are free to do so. I've disclosed locations of common species on my own Facebook page, Flickr page, etc., and have used discretion with other locales.
One of the worst thing I think is the desire that seems to exist to make this "group" some sort of quasi-academic/scientific endeavor. The need to cozy up to the real academic community, and worse, state agencies, has changed the feeling of the forums and discourages the old style laymen who learned long ago what "They" think of our "Hobby".
NAFHA's mission statement. "Our mission is dedicated to uniting amateur, private and professional herpetologists from Canada, the United States and Mexico toward the common goal of better understanding, conserving and managing native North American reptiles and amphibians."

It's true that you do not have to be a member of NAFHA or any of its chapters to post on the Field Herp Forum, and you are under no pressure to join. You are also free to ignore any posts that are about species counts, database, academic community, or state agencies.

You've had some very valuable input in some of the threads, especially with newcomers asking questions, and I would hate to lose your voice of experience here. I, too, love the cool pics and cool stories. I'd love to see more of those.

One of my reasons for starting this thread was a private message I got from a relative newcomer to the forum who was concerned that he was annoying people with his newbie questions. I really wanted to open up a discussion and get the people who post in here involved in seeing what THEY want.

I believe in being the change. Anyone here is free to start a thread on any aspect of field herping that they want, as long as it adheres to the Terms of Usage. My current favorite thread is this one, celebrating the humble eastern garter snake. It's chock full of pictures. Check it out, if you haven't.

Let's keep this conversation going.
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incuhead2000
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by incuhead2000 »

I like newbie questions. The old timers seem to get annoyed quickly here and just direct newcomers to old posts, but I can't make anyone be polite and just answer their questions (even if they seem like stupid ones).

I've seen other uses get bent out of shape asking questions and just give attitude. How about recommend a good book.

Sometimes I'm suprised I'm still here after certain users acted like I killed their dog because I handled a timber.

I'm still here because I still feel that there are still nice folks out there that I actually would like to meet and learn from (which I learned was true after the nafha outing in june)..and perhaps now I could even teach new herpers something, I'm even taking a youngster on a herping trip here in a few weeks.d

I like it here more than I dislike it here, and hope to contribute more citizen science in the future.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by hellihooks »

During my years as Ca's Ed. Spec...I took it as part of my job to answer Newb questions, and never minded doing it. Now, on the FB page that I (and several other Nafha members) are operating as 'HERP liaisons' I answer the same 'newb' questions DAILY.... but we're now up to 4500 members (and still growing) Hell... I even started our own versons of data contests...https://www.facebook.com/groups/highdes ... p_activity

Funny thing bout helping people... they tend to become friends...even if you never meet them in person. But... in the Nafha forums... you tend to meet them, when they show up for one of the many Herp Surveys we do for Land Conservancies, Forestry Depts, the State and Federal Govt, or on outings the members organize themselves. Anyone who doesn't think we have (and have earned) creditability with 'professionals' is SORELY Mistaken... here in Ca... the State won't do anything herp-related without requesting our data.

While ostensible no longer officially tied to HERP... Nafha was created to populate that project, and is committed to continuing to do so... it was 'job # 1' and still is, even if not 'officially'.

Many worried (and some even bought into) the idea that now no longer tied to HERP...Nafha would languish and fade away... and many lamented "what will Nafha do now?"... Easy... same thing we've Always done... populate the Database... Do herp Surveys... educate newbs...and make friends and herping buddies... :) Things are typically very amiable on the Chapter forums, unlike FHF where a 'Free Speech' paradigm holds sway, allowing all the stupid mean people a place to hang out and abuse each other... thank god FHF members aren't required to post in Chapter forums... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:

Granted... there may need to be a 'sea-change' in both our own, and everyone elses perception of us, and what we do... but you don't get that done by walking away... that's (IMO)... WEAK.

I can envision the day when ANY State/Fed agency and/or Universities need data collected for research purposes... they turn to us, to get it done... rather than 1 or 2 researchers hired to find what they can, and make recomendations based on insufficient data.
Nafha members were the first to collect data from the public at large, review and verify it, and enter it in a (now) creditable Database. This could very well be a/the next big paradigm-shift in 'Citizen Science' since it's inception.

If Nature teaches us anything... it's 'adapt or die' ... so... if you prefer death to adaptation... well... good riddance. We'll adapt and flourish, and be here when you want to come (crawling) back... :beer: 8-)
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by Mike VanValen »

I like what you're saying, Jim. This chapter is struggling a bit to recruit new members who do more than just sign up and have their name put on the membership list. I think it takes a certain type to really get into keeping records and submitting data. We have that with the core group here, but there is (I think so, anyways) a large group of fringe people who may have been looking for a little more activity from a field herping association other than "submit data to HERP!". I wish some of the lurkers would speak up and share their opinions.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by mikez »

I feel a little bad about my mini-rant, obviously a touchy nerve for me. Should maybe clarify....
First, I speak about all these forums, not just NE, but also specifically the NE FB page.
Obvously I'm not a member of the group or groups here with all the memberships, bylaws, rules, unwritten rules. I don't even know who/what you are and have never read your list of rules. I probably break them all the time, not always on purpose. To me it seems like a few too many people take themselves WAY too seriously and are way too prone to get their lacy garments tangled at the slightest offense. Which causes me to involuntarily intentionally be a jerk just to tangle some garments.

I'm really turned off by the cozying up to some of these state agencies. For one, the need to impress and fit in with the F&G types is the cause of much of the garment tangling when perfectly innocent herpers get blasted or have their posts removed for posting about legal activities that Big Brother finds offensive. It is sad and unfortunate but many herpers like myself are driven from the forum all in the forlorn hope that maybe Big Brother will take you seriously. Someday you'll see they are humoring you and using the forum to keep an eye on a community many of them condemn out of hand as no worse than poachers.
As a point of fact, myself, my teen age son and a friend were ruthlessly harassed and eventually run out of town after being detained for an hour, searched and otherwise treated like a criminal. We were told "Don't come back", "we"ll be watching for your car" and "It doesn't matter if you didn't break the law, you still can't go in there".
This at a location that was once shown here in pics but not named. As a direct result of that series of posts and the hellacious fallout, that state has put that spot under a microscope. The outright violate the civil rights of innocent herpers who just want to look, while allowing the bulldozers to destroy whats left of the habitat.
These are the people you'all are tryin' to impress. If that's what these forums are about, count me out. Well, OK, I get curious and visit, mostly lurk and laugh, maybe a snide remark to piss somebody off, but the backlog of pics and stories I got will not likely ever be seen here.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by hellihooks »

mikez wrote:
I'm really turned off by the cozying up to some of these state agencies. For one, the need to impress and fit in with the F&G types is the cause of much of the garment tangling when perfectly innocent herpers get blasted or have their posts removed for posting about legal activities that Big Brother finds offensive. It is sad and unfortunate but many herpers like myself are driven from the forum all in the forlorn hope that maybe Big Brother will take you seriously. Someday you'll see they are humoring you and using the forum to keep an eye on a community many of them condemn out of hand as no worse than poachers.
As a point of fact, myself, my teen age son and a friend were ruthlessly harassed and eventually run out of town after being detained for an hour, searched and otherwise treated like a criminal. We were told "Don't come back", "we"ll be watching for your car" and "It doesn't matter if you didn't break the law, you still can't go in there".
This at a location that was once shown here in pics but not named. As a direct result of that series of posts and the hellacious fallout, that state has put that spot under a microscope. The outright violate the civil rights of innocent herpers who just want to look, while allowing the bulldozers to destroy whats left of the habitat.
These are the people you'all are tryin' to impress. If that's what these forums are about, count me out. Well, OK, I get curious and visit, mostly lurk and laugh, maybe a snide remark to piss somebody off, but the backlog of pics and stories I got will not likely ever be seen here
.
So you had a bad experience with local LE/F&G.... and Blame it on US???? those are NOT the agencies we (as you put it) cozy up to. We work with State and Federal agencies, often with Universities involved, to provide better/more data so that better herp laws can be written. Not our fault that local LE took it too far with you. Or perhaps it's that some new law was written, that you don't like... so you blame it on us??? sounds like a crybaby to me...sputtering and spitting out 'sour grapes'. grow up dude.
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

Jim, please - Mike has the right to voice his opinion, and I respect his opinion. After all, I did ask.

You also have the right to voice your opinion, although I think your delivery of it was harsh.

I hope we can get through this bump without drama. Please.

Thanks,
Andrea
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by hellihooks »

Yeah... it was a bit harsh... but how I feel. Collecting data is the ONLY herp-related activity that gives back to herps, rather than just satisfy OUR wants/desires... and Nafha as a group works FOR herps, by trying to get 'Better' herp laws on the books.
To blame Nafha for a bad experience with bottom-rung LE, is patently rediculous... :roll:

Citizen Science is a GOOD Thing... ;)
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by cbernz »

hellihooks wrote:Collecting data is the ONLY herp-related activity that gives back to herps, rather than just satisfy OUR wants/desires
I can think of several (arguably more) important activities off the top of my head:

1) education (leading field trips, etc.)
2) outreach (giving talks, slide shows, etc.)
3) preserving/creating habitat (donating to conservation, building snake dens, constructing amphibian crossing culverts, etc.)

Collecting data is important, and data collection contributes to all the above activities, but it is by no means the only way to contribute.
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by The Jake-Man »

Those are some very good points Cbernz. When I started herping, I fell into the trap that is thinking the only way to help herps is to document them. Only recently, when I became heavily involved in my home state's atlas project have I realized that education and outreach are just as important as data collection.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by hellihooks »

Yeah... been doing all those other things for years... but, was in a hurry and perhaps misspoke. Whether we observe, photograph, collect for personal hobby/ locality breeding... those are all done to largely satisfy our wants and desires (cept for locality breeding which can help herps and pocketbook) Data collection is primarily done FOR the good of the herps... and can accompany all these other herp-related activities, as a way of giving back, for all you get...while IN THE Field. ;)
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by axeman2729 »

I guess im a little late to the party but if any one would happen to be in the Pittsburgh area at any point between now and like april I am the president of my schools Biology club and would love to have any of you speak at one of our meetings it would be really helpful as the purpose of the club is to study for a competition in may called the envirothon with on of the stations being aquatics which includes reptiles and amphibians.
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

axeman2729 wrote:I guess im a little late to the party but if any one would happen to be in the Pittsburgh area at any point between now and like april I am the president of my schools Biology club and would love to have any of you speak at one of our meetings it would be really helpful as the purpose of the club is to study for a competition in may called the envirothon with on of the stations being aquatics which includes reptiles and amphibians.
That's a great thing to be involved in! I'm really far from Pittsburgh, but perhaps another person on the board can do this.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by axeman2729 »

hey you never know you might end up coming here for a business trip or something hahaha
mikez
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by mikez »

"... so you blame it on us??? sounds like a crybaby to me...sputtering and spitting out 'sour grapes'. grow up dude."

I totally forgot I had posted in this thread and just re-discovered it and saw the mature measured response from our esteemed Ca member [pres, former pres, educater????].

This is so typical and if I cared I'd prolly get all irritated. Instead I got my first laugh out loud moment of the day.
Yah, he musta been a heck of an edaktor, teaching people by calling them childish names.

I reread my post to see where I was blaming the group on my harassment in CT. I guess it was describing the fallout from posting pics of the den site in question. I know for a fact Ct reads the forums because the F&G guy that showed up told us they did. By virtue of posting pics of timbers, we became poachers, even though we never touched the animals. There is no question in my mind that we could have easily enjoyed a fully legal and ethical hike and photoed some snakes if not for the attention this and other forums received from the F&G types.
I guess that makes me a crybaby. I'd like to see how a tough guy like that would have endured such a blatant violation of his civil rights. Maybe he believes it's OK to treat innocent herpers as criminals.

Anyway, to reiterate - I don't trust the state agencies and I don't believe for a second that Ca won't make a move without consulting a bunch of amateurs. They keep an eye on you, record your names, read your posts.

I hope the mature reasonable people will tolerate my occasional posts here and forgive me my distrust of the state agencies. I don't want to count critters and the last thing I'll do is submit data to an agency that delists protected species in order to ease the path of the bulldozers.
I may need to grow up, but have no urge to prove my "list" is bigger than yours.
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Fundad
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by Fundad »

I hope the mature reasonable people will tolerate my occasional posts here and forgive me my distrust of the state agencies. I don't want to count critters and the last thing I'll do is submit data to an agency that delists protected species in order to ease the path of the bulldozers.
I may need to grow up, but have no urge to prove my "list" is bigger than yours.

One incident with state LE officers and you give up trying to build a relationship with an agency? I have had more than 10 incidents in my many years in the field, and it only motivates me more. You have two choices. 1. Do what your currently doing which is just living your life, and saying screw it this is BS, I just want to herp for fun (nothing wrong with this choice, btw), or 2. You can try to break through and make a difference and change things (This one requires effort, thick skin, and a tough heart to overcome the problems)

If don't want to count herps, and take the time to enter data, because it interferes with your enjoyment of herping that is understandable. If you claim you don't do it because you don't want something delisted , you don't fully understand how habitat mitigation, environmental consultants, state/Federal Agencies, and environmental impact reports (EIR's) work to 'possibly' preserve habitats from development.

Your imaginary fear, and unlikely outcome of any data shared, prevents you from actually contributing to the very reason you say you are not entering it.

In California, HERP/NAFHA has been responsible for discovering species on multiple locations that were going to be developed on without mitigation for those species discovered. Within the next 2 months, will be contributing data directly to the CDFW database, that all Enviro consultants much search through for all development projects that require a impact report.
If we have data for a location, the enviro consultant (often hired by the developer) can NOT ignore that species occurrence on the habitat in question and mitigation begins..

This is a daily occurrence across the country vs Your fear that species are delisted happens at a rate of about once every 5-10 years.

Anyway Mike have a nice day and enjoy your time with your Kids.
Brian Hinds
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

I appreciate everyone's concerns here. As I have been saying, I want everyone to be comfortable posting in the Northeast Chapter board, and want to know what I can do to help make this board a comfortable place for everyone.

As far as state agencies reading the FHF, that doesn't surprise me one bit. Anyone can read these forums; it's not like they are closed to members only. Employees at state agencies are welcome to join FHF and post here (and probably do). My conscience is clean; I know which local species have protections and respect those protections.

To input data or not to input data? That is the question. I encourage people to input data if they choose to, but if they choose not to, that's not my hill to die on. As stated before, there is no requirement to join NAFHA or to input data to HERP or Herpmapper for posting in FHF.

Let's not get grumpy with each other. The weather has sucked for humans in MA the past few days, but look at the bright side: It's been great for marbled salamanders, a species listed as threatened in the state.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by mikez »

Damn, I just typed a long reply to Fundad and it got disappeared. No time to retype so sumerizing...
Thanks Fundad for a great response. You've come a long way since we battled on the web back in the day. I particularly appreciate your reference to my family as it shows you remember what is important to me. A very cagey and thoughtful response. Works fer me.

I don't know if anyone has done this as I have suggested it several times, but I suggest those who think I'm being paranoid research the history of the spotted turtle in Ma. It's everything I have feared and is directly behind my distrust and unwillingness to contribute.

In the mean time, I do so love to herp and to talk about herps and there just aren't many good places to do that. Also there are really cool and really smart people here that I like. A lot of the friends I have now who I herp and hunt and bird and fish with are people I met in forums like this. It could take a life time to meet enough like minded individuals to build a community but here you have it ready made. Quite a cool thing, no matter if there is a bit of strife.
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

mikez wrote: Also there are really cool and really smart people here that I like. A lot of the friends I have now who I herp and hunt and bird and fish with are people I met in forums like this. It could take a life time to meet enough like minded individuals to build a community but here you have it ready made. Quite a cool thing, no matter if there is a bit of strife.
True, that! Everyone has different levels of experience to bring to the table. I've learned so much here, and still have so much more to learn. We all have that one common thread - a love of herps - that should surpass all else.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by MCHerper »

ZantiMissKnit wrote:
mikez wrote: Also there are really cool and really smart people here that I like. A lot of the friends I have now who I herp and hunt and bird and fish with are people I met in forums like this. It could take a life time to meet enough like minded individuals to build a community but here you have it ready made. Quite a cool thing, no matter if there is a bit of strife.
True, that! Everyone has different levels of experience to bring to the table. I've learned so much here, and still have so much more to learn. We all have that one common thread - a love of herps - that should surpass all else.
Amen
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by jonathan »

I wrote something that could function in part as an extended reply to this thread here:

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =7&t=20930



I agree that if we start relying on Facebook (or instagram, or flickr, or whatever), then we are going to suffer a lot as a community. I have a herper-only facebook account with 200+ herping friends...but nearly all I see are pictures without a story, rants at whoever we hate most recently, and the occasional link.

I can think of 20-30 amazing educational posts on this forum that I'll remember forever, and probably hundreds of trip accounts that we fascinating as much for the stories as for the pictures. I've seen some really useful back-and-forth debates that went on for 50-150 replies. Even when not everyone agrees at the end, we learn something from the other perspective.

If we start relying on Facebook for this stuff, the amount we learn is going to drop more and more. Way too many people on Facebook just seem obsessed with how many 'likes' their photos get vs. how many 'likes' everyone else's photos get. I'll still use it to keep in touch with certain people and to post links/photos out to the masses, but I don't get much out of it.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by jonathan »

cbernz wrote:I can think of several (arguably more) important activities off the top of my head:

1) education (leading field trips, etc.)
2) outreach (giving talks, slide shows, etc.)
3) preserving/creating habitat (donating to conservation, building snake dens, constructing amphibian crossing culverts, etc.)

Collecting data is important, and data collection contributes to all the above activities, but it is by no means the only way to contribute.

I think this is one of the best replies to the "what can we do to make this chapter relevant" question too.

There are few groups as well situated as NAFHA to get a wide range of people involved in all of theses activities - doing surveys, going on trips together, putting together education talks, doing public outreach, helping on habitat restoration and invasive species removal, etc.

I'm a believer in the idea that the more people you get involved in such activity, and the more different kinds of people you get involved in such activity, the greater chance you have of making a difference in the broader world. And that's where you move from "this is just about me and the snakes I keep" to "let's try and make sure my grandkids still can see a frog in the wild when they grow up".

Of course, if the chapter isn't making these things happen....that's why I encourage everyone (whether you're a chapter officer or not) to start asking themselves whether they can make a difference with some sort of event or project, and then rally up the masses to join in.
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by ebit123 »

Very interesting thread. I guess I'm joining it late. I find the Facebook page is good for sharing pictures. However, when I want region specific info I come here (there are new england and mass FB groups, but they don't seem to be really active ON FB).

Would love to see more outings/field trips in different areas .
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

ebit123 wrote:Very interesting thread. I guess I'm joining it late. I find the Facebook page is good for sharing pictures. However, when I want region specific info I come here (there are new england and mass FB groups, but they don't seem to be really active ON FB).

Would love to see more outings/field trips in different areas .
I would really love to check out RI sometime; I've never been there to herp!
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ebit123
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by ebit123 »

There are definitely some good areas, depending on what you're looking for. A Lot of refuges, wildlife areas, that never seem to crowded.
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beemaster
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Re: Questions from your President

Post by beemaster »

mikez wrote:I don't know if anyone has done this as I have suggested it several times, but I suggest those who think I'm being paranoid research the history of the spotted turtle in Ma. It's everything I have feared and is directly behind my distrust and unwillingness to contribute.
This is only anecdotal, but I would like to share my personal observations. I found my first spottled turtle a year before they were delisted and by 2009 they started to become a regular sight for me. Over the last few years, I keep finding them in new places and in larger numbers. I saw at least 20 in one spot(!) in 2014.

Leaving out those obvious places where spotted turtles have already been well documented, I've found them in over a dozen spots in Bristol County. At most of those locations I found more than one spotted turtle, and at about half I've observed multiple turtles over a series of years. These sites encompass a relatively large geographical area spanning parts of the Westport, Taunton, Narragansett, and Slocum River watersheds, respectively. Most of the sites represent chunks of state owned, ConCom run, or otherwise protected land and the few that are not don't appear to be in any risk of development in the near future, particularly due to accessibility problems. Also worthy of note is that at least half of these sites are located in relatively close proximity to urban areas. While this doesn't necessarily mean anything, it might indicate that spotted turtles aren't as heavily impacted by habitat fragmentation (and especially the effects of urban proximity) as, say, box or Blanding's turtles seem to be.

I want to add that I've never actually targeted spotted turtles. On the other hand, I have specifically targeted box turtles. Despite the fact that I have, and that box turtle populations are supposed to be strongest in SE Massachusetts, I've seen about 20 in my entire life (including DoR), spread around perhaps 6 total sites. I haven't seen one, living or dead, since 2013. I'd also like to add that I've never in my life seen a hognose or smooth green snake, despite the fact that they were historically more common in SE Massachusetts, the abundance of suitable habitat, and the fact that neither are MESA listed species.

My personal observations lead me to believe that spotted turtles, at least in this portion of the state, are not in desperate need of protection that they aren't getting. I can't speak on their abundance for the rest of the state, as I rarely get out of the South Coast/Cape areas except for the occasional Sox game, but they are certainly widespread throughout the state. My impression (and I'm VERY open to new information and alternative opinions) is that spotted turtles are far more common locally and widespread than any of the currently listed reptiles and amphibians. Additionally, I feel there are several reptiles and amphibians that would probably benefit more greatly from protection than spotted turtles in Massachusetts.

These are just my impressions based on my own anecdotal observations. If you read this and your observations drastically differ, I welcome you to share your general observations, as well. I'm well aware that my impressions may be flawed and very open to hearing differing points of view, especially where data is involved.
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