L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

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jdustin
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L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by jdustin »

So I drove around the block last night and found these two snakes on the next street over from mine, within about 5 minutes. I have lots of better pictures on my wife's real camera, but need to get them downloaded.

I was reading that in Northern Georgia there is some integradation with L. triangulum triangulum and L. triangulum elapsoides, is that correct?. Does this look like an integrade, or a normal eastern milk?
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This is where I am. It's about 6 miles from South Carolina, and 19 miles from the Carolina.
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And then there was this guy. I've always found copperheads to be very pretty.
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I'm loving it out here in the east. I've been here 2 and a half weeks and I've seen 5 snake species just inside my neighborhood.
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BillMcGighan
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Re: L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by BillMcGighan »

Glad to see you're quickly gettiing into nthe swing of things here in the east, Josh.
I was reading that in Northern Georgia there is some integradation with L. triangulum triangulum and L. triangulum elapsoides, is that correct?. Does this look like an integrade, or a normal eastern milk?
More pics will help, especially lateral shot and ventrals, if you took them. First pass it looks very intergrade. This, of course, is a hot topic here in the east.

The "triangulum"/"elapsoides" relationship, where the piedmont meets the mountains on the eastern versant of the Appalachians from GA to NJ, is a virtual morphological Mixmaster.

This is not suprising when you look at how the glacial periods changed these habitats so many times.

Interestingly enough, interspersed in the Appalachians (Sequatchie valley in TN for example), “triangulum” phases are common in the mountains and, just a few miles away, “elapsoides” forms are found in the valleys!
I’m hoping the jelly jockeys can refine some of this with some genetic clarification and refine the range maps. Some of our GA/SC/NC brethren probably have some good input on this.
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ScottAL
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Re: L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by ScottAL »

I've seen several milks from north Georgia that look like yours. Personally, I don't think it's influence of L. t. elapsoides. But what do I know?
Here's one from Gilmer County.
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jdustin
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Re: L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by jdustin »

Here are a couple more pictures of that milk. ScottAL, it does look a lot like that Glimer county one. The one I saw was in Habersham county.
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I've also ran across quite a few of these guys. I mean, look at the beak on that ugly faced old dinosaur.... oh, and a turtle too.
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Noah M
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Re: L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by Noah M »

I like snappers. And I am not referring to the lawn mowers, or the George Carlin bit about them.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by Mike VanValen »

Whatever is going on with these snakes (relict syspila ;) ), they are really nice looking specimens across the range.
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jdustin
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Re: L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by jdustin »

I saw another milk a few nights ago. This one was on my street. : )
I LOVE basically not having to travel at all in order to see some fun herps. I live in a gated neighborhood that's nestled into the mountains just inside the Chattahoochee National Forest. It's basically scattered houses with large sections of forest between each, and small ponds and streams here and there.
Since moving here in May, just inside the neighborhood I've seen black racers, black ratsnakes, copperheads, eastern kingsnake, eastern milksnakes, cornsnake, crowned snake, eastern garter... and then a mole king and couple canebrakes not too far away. Georgia is heaven.
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Berkeley Boone
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Re: L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by Berkeley Boone »

I've found identical milks in Habersham and Stephens as well. Approximately a dozen. I know I am probably going to get heat for this, but I don't buy the 'elapsoides-intergrade' thing. The closest counties in GA that have scarlet kings are nearly five counties to the south. I like that 'relict syspila' idea that Mike mentioned... :)

I've got some pictures of the snakes that I have found, I'll have to see about posting them later tonight.

--Berkeley
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Re: L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by hellihooks »

I know nothing about the milks in question, nor their ranges... but I had a weird idea pop into my head, while reading this thread.
Rather than range overlaps, that produce intergrades, could 'spotty distributions' overlap, producing pockets of pure forms, within the respective ranges of the two subs in question? :? 8-) jim
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Mike VanValen
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Re: L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by Mike VanValen »

These are morphologically closer to Lt.triangulum, than elapsoides....which is now considered a full species. No one is confusing a full grown elapsoides for a triangulum, if that's what you're hinting at.
hellihooks wrote:I know nothing about the milks in question, nor their ranges... but I had a weird idea pop into my head, while reading this thread.
Rather than range overlaps, that produce intergrades, could 'spotty distributions' overlap, producing pockets of pure forms, within the respective ranges of the two subs in question? :? 8-) jim
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Re: L.t.t, or integrade with elapsoides?

Post by hellihooks »

No Mike... don't know enough about the morphology to hint at anything. my question was theoretical, for any two species.... can there be pockets of pure forms of each, in the others recognized ranges, with little or no intergradation. Overlapping 'spotty' distributions. Perhaps this is old hat, and happens a lot... but it was a novel thought for me, used to thinking only of overlaps in ranges as intergradation zones. sorry if this sidetracked the discussion a bit. jim
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