Frustration

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Jake Schneider
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Frustration

Post by Jake Schneider »

Hey guys.

So, I bet everyone here in the Northeast and probably everywhere have this problem. I was at a little bridge over the water, and saw people crowded around the edge looking into the water. At the bank was a medium-sized watersnake. I walked up and said to my Dad: "Hey a watersnake." A man looked over and said "Yeah, a Water Moccasin."
I told him it was not venomous and that he had misidentified it. He didn't believe it and neither did most of the people there.
Another time a guy was installing our new cable at my house and I had my Boa Constrictor out. I asked if he wanted to see it as he seemed interested. He told me he sees enough snakes since his house on the Bay has Water Moccasins in its yard. I could go on and on about this but all the stories have the same basic idea. The question is how do I convince people Cottonmouths DO NOT live in Maryland? They just won't listen to facts. I can show the Round Pupils, lack of pits, divided anal scale, etc., but they won't listen. I can pick it up and have it latch onto my arm and show how I'm not in unbearable pain from my flesh deteriorating do to the venom but that'll have no effect. They'll trust their idiotic friends with information on snakes but not a range map in a field guide published by a Herpetologist. Surely everyone else here has been in a similar situation whether it be a racer confused with a copperhead (how do they look similar at all?) or a watersnake confused with a Cottonmouth, or my favorite the horrible man-eating ratsnake that is a danger to the small children and pets in the neighborhood. We need to find a way to inform people about snakes and I see every one of these situations as an opportunity to do it. Sadly, I have only had a few successes.

So does anyone have any advice for trying to lessen people's fear of snakes or at least convince them they're not all venomous and out to kill everyone.
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mtratcliffe
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Re: Frustration

Post by mtratcliffe »

Jake,

I understand your frustrations. So many people just don't want to educate themselves. Though perhaps there is some silver lining if these people leave the nerodias alone because they think they are venomous and want to avoid getting bitten.

Just yesterday my neighbor killed a beautiful cornsnake between his house and another neighbor's because he thought it was a copperhead. When I told him they don't range this far south, he said "better safe than sorry." Even dumber, he linked me a photo of a copperhead that was actually a milk snake. I don't even know...what a waste.
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Frustration

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

:massive eyeroll:

Yup, I've gotten it, too, because there are TOTALLY cottonmouths in Massachusetts.

I also got into it with people online (on a knitting forum, no less). Here are a couple of quotes:
Sorry, but I have a close family friend who is a Dept of Natural Resources (Maryland) police officer & she can tell you of the ponds on Maryland’s Eastern Shore where water moccasins abound. She’s a native of Worcester County & did Naturalist duties at Maryland State Parks before the Park police & DNR police merged.
And:
DNR doesn’t like people thinking there are poisonous snakes in our state.
Someone else who insists they are in PA:
Nope. Water mocassins. My parent’s neighbor’s a game warden and his pond is full of ‘em too.
Yeah, snakes don’t really care where the internet says they should be, do they? :P They kinda just pop up wherever. Oh well.
Interesting how BOTH people in different states have a connection who works for the state.

I asked the person in MD if her "friend" in the DNR calls the snakes "poisonous" as well, and told the person in PA that I'd believe there are "water mocassins" there if she sent me a photo with GPS coordinates embedded, because I'm an "insert profanity here" like that.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Frustration

Post by Mike VanValen »

Yeah, after all these years I have gotten kind of numb to it. I often just smile and nod my head. I was herping in Delaware once and I was taking photos of turtles at a pond. Two people came up and told me there were two dead copperheads in the road up ahead. Of course, it was two northern watersnakes. They insisted it was copperheads "because they had red markings".

It's amazing. No group of animals conjure up more urban legends than snakes. My friends mother grew up in the Greece countryside, where they apparently fear snakes like no other creature. I've known the family for 25 years, her son and I caught garters in the yard growing up, and to this day she believes every snake is venomous and we are going to die.

Not all is fruitless, though. I've educated a select few people who actually listened when I explained to them there are NO MOCASSINS IN CONNECTICUT!
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Frustration

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

I think, in general, people don't want to stray far from what they have always known to be "true", whether it's right or wrong. This mindset is how urban legends stay alive!

If people seem to be interested when we are holding a snake or photographing a snake, I'll take the time to give them some information. If they ask if it is "poisonous" I will let them know that, no, this snake is not venomous and not a danger to them at all.
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Frustration

Post by Mike VanValen »

Admitting error is hard. We're only human, after all!
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Frustration

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

Mike VanValen wrote:Admitting error is hard. We're only human, after all!
That is true, and I do my best to correct them in a non-condescending manner. I've had a few people learn something, and have had a few other people who won't budge.
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Frustration

Post by The Jake-Man »

One cool morning last June, I was mountain biking on a very remote road in Northern Pennsylvania. I rode right past what I thought was a stick, did a double take, and realized it was a yearling timber, slowly crossing the road. Even though I had been riding for 20 minutes and hadn't seen a car, I figured I should move it off the road. So, I grabbed a stick, and began to gently poke/steer the snake towards the other side of the road. Sure enough, when I had it almost to the center line, I noticed a pickup coming towards me. When it drew closer, it stopped, maybe 8 feet in front of me, and the two guys in it watched me intently, trying to figure out what in the heck I was doing. I had the snake cornered on the centerline, figuring I would let the truck past first, but the driver of the truck gave me a wave, indicating that I should move it across the road in front of his truck. Well, this snake, though cold, thought the safest place it could be was under that truck, because it made a break for it with surprising speed, right towards the guy's truck. As soon as it made a move towards the truck, the passenger, a large, bearded, mountain man kind of guy screams "ROLL THE F***ING WINDOWS UP NOW! NOW! NOW!" It was one of the few times I've seen someone truly in panic. This was a lifted pickup truck. The snake was maybe, MAYBE 14 inches long. The prevalence of misinformation, but more importantly, irrational fear of snakes, is staggering, especially in areas where people commonly encounter actual venomous snakes.

I've tried to convince people otherwise, but to the layman, every snake is deadly. If you say otherwise, they come up with reasons why they're right and you're wrong. It really is frustrating.
Jake Schneider
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Re: Frustration

Post by Jake Schneider »

Mike VanValen wrote: They insisted it was copperheads "because they had red markings".
Yeah, even reading that bothered me. I can't stand when people come up with such stupid identification guidelines. Red markings? I'd laugh if it wasn't such a real problem. When I show them REAL ways to identify a snake, they just go into denial. They say something like "Well this must be a kind of Copperhead that hasn't been documented before." instead of just admitting they're wrong.
The Jake-Man wrote:One cool morning last June, I was mountain biking on a very remote road in Northern Pennsylvania. I rode right past what I thought was a stick, did a double take, and realized it was a yearling timber, slowly crossing the road. Even though I had been riding for 20 minutes and hadn't seen a car, I figured I should move it off the road. So, I grabbed a stick, and began to gently poke/steer the snake towards the other side of the road. Sure enough, when I had it almost to the center line, I noticed a pickup coming towards me. When it drew closer, it stopped, maybe 8 feet in front of me, and the two guys in it watched me intently, trying to figure out what in the heck I was doing. I had the snake cornered on the centerline, figuring I would let the truck past first, but the driver of the truck gave me a wave, indicating that I should move it across the road in front of his truck. Well, this snake, though cold, thought the safest place it could be was under that truck, because it made a break for it with surprising speed, right towards the guy's truck. As soon as it made a move towards the truck, the passenger, a large, bearded, mountain man kind of guy screams "ROLL THE F***ING WINDOWS UP NOW! NOW! NOW!" It was one of the few times I've seen someone truly in panic. This was a lifted pickup truck. The snake was maybe, MAYBE 14 inches long. The prevalence of misinformation, but more importantly, irrational fear of snakes, is staggering, especially in areas where people commonly encounter actual venomous snakes.

I've tried to convince people otherwise, but to the layman, every snake is deadly. If you say otherwise, they come up with reasons why they're right and you're wrong. It really is frustrating.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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ZantiMissKnit
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Re: Frustration

Post by ZantiMissKnit »

Here's another example...somebody tagged me in the comments of a picture of someone holding a garter snake found while gardening (and was let go after the photos). People were talking about how cute it was, and then someone comments:
Cute until you realize it has a rattle at the end or likes biting poison. Cute my ass....
Damn...

One thing that I have a hard time wrapping my head around is that some people have no curiosity at all when it comes to nature. I've always enjoyed watching creatures do their thing. Have you ever seen a spider wrap up something caught in its web? It's truly fascinating! But to other people, spiders, insects, reptiles and amphibians are just disgusting. Truth be told, my mother is in the "disgusting" camp, and my father, although he admits to not liking snakes per se, always supported my curiosity and respect for nature.
Jake Schneider
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Re: Frustration

Post by Jake Schneider »

ZantiMissKnit wrote: One thing that I have a hard time wrapping my head around is that some people have no curiosity at all when it comes to nature. I've always enjoyed watching creatures do their thing. Have you ever seen a spider wrap up something caught in its web? It's truly fascinating! But to other people, spiders, insects, reptiles and amphibians are just disgusting. Truth be told, my mother is in the "disgusting" camp, and my father, although he admits to not liking snakes per se, always supported my curiosity and respect for nature.
Spiders were my favorite animal until I was around 10, then it was herps. I remember being in elementary school in class and someone would find a spider. Everyone would go in panic mode and kids would all rush in to kill it. I would be the first there, and fend off other kids until I could pick up the spider and safely transport it outside. Now at least the 15-16 year-olds in my class aren't brave enough to go near the spider, so it doesn't cause as much of a problem, and I can just wait until the end of class to pick it up. :)
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Frustration

Post by Mike VanValen »

The thing that really gets to me is when people kill a snake and then pose with it like they conquered a dragon. I just had someone post a dead southern copperhead on my facebook wall this morning. The typical "dogs & kids" excuse is what was used. After 25 years, that doesn't fly with me anymore. Most cases, in my experience, have nothing to do with dogs or kids.
calluna
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Re: Frustration

Post by calluna »

I don't have any advice for educating adults, unfortunately--the few times I have tried, people ignore me, don't believe me, or call me rude.

HOWEVER, educating children is a different matter. My mom used to teach 2nd grade, and for about ten years, she would have me come to her class once per year with my snakes (ball python and Dumeril's boa) to talk to the kids. I never forced any of them to touch or even get closer than they were comfortable. Most of them did want to touch, and asked a lot of questions. I know that as they got older, some of them probably forgot about that encounter or their parents or friends twisted their view of reptiles, but I hope that most of them at least realized that snakes are not as dangerous as they might have thought.

So in my opinion, for the younger generations, the answer is hands-on education. I know there are places that do educational presentations, but every one I have found charges for that. It really needs to be free in order to reach the majority of the populace.
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cbernz
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Re: Frustration

Post by cbernz »

There are many, many things I hate about our new hyper-connected, internet-driven society, but one of the side benefits is that all the strange myths, superstitions, and outright misinformation about snakes and other animals will gradually diminish. Some people will always dismiss or mistrust outside information, but most people will believe what they're told, as long as it seems credible, and more and more that credible source is a website rather than some old coot babbling about "hoop snakes" and "two-steppers."
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MarcLinsalata
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Re: Frustration

Post by MarcLinsalata »

I agree with Calluna - it's better to educate the kids than the adults who are stuck in their ways. You are only going to get into arguments with them. And I can get heated on arguments when I know I'm right.
mtratcliffe wrote:When I told him they don't range this far south, he said "better safe than sorry."
You should have told this knucklehead to just kill you, too. He doesn't know what your intentions could ever be. :roll:
MCHerper
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Re: Frustration

Post by MCHerper »

It's pretty ridiculous, but it provides a scary picture of how powerful ignorance can be.

I wish people would just leave them alone. Every time I pull a deer tick off of me I think of how we would likely have far fewer white-footed mice if we had an abundance of constrictors around here with a few pitvipers thrown in for kicks and giggles. They've been hunted too much and their populations will never make a comeback until people stop cutting their heads off because they are all "evil and venomous".

Of course I can also say a lot for the people who run them over just for the sake of it when they're trying to make it across a road, they're doing all of us a tremendous service by being so brave.

Then there are the people who dump their cats or let them run around the neighborhood and kill the birds, snakes, toads, etc. Awesome.

One of my first experiences with a snake was when my much older brother hit a racer with his car on a semi-rural road near our house. He brought the racer home and put it in a garbage can and covered it with the lid. I was about 6 at the time. Of course I wanted to see it, and they uncovered the can and the racer leapt up toward my face. They kicked over the can and it took off toward the woods. Two of his friends stoned it to death on the path before it could get to the woods. Even at that age, I was upset and realized that all it wanted to do was live. That was actually one of two formative events that led me to love herps in general, and to see snakes as tremendously vulnerable.

This is why I would like to become more active in conservation efforts within this state. Hopefully there will one day be a greater number of people who admire and see the real beauty in these creatures.
Jkenny7512
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Re: Frustration

Post by Jkenny7512 »

MCHerper wrote:
Then there are the people who dump their cats or let them run around the neighborhood and kill the birds, snakes, toads, etc. Awesome.
This is major problem where I live on Long Island. When we moved into our home 16 years ago, we had cotton tail rabbits, chipmunks, garter snakes, toads, spring peepers, grey tree frogs and Italian wall lizards in abundance in our neighborhood.
Now 16 years later you cannot find any of these animals around our neighborhood anymore but we do have a pride of about 25 feral cats that roam the neighborhood day and night. On top of killing off all the native wild life they dig up gardens, use flower beds for their litter box, use my fish pond for their watering hole and a fish meal when they can catch one, howl and fight all night long and spray musk all over my back yard.
No one wants to do anything about it and I even have neighbors who put out food for them because they feel sorry for them.
Don't get me wrong, I love cats. We have a house cat but she is just that, a house cat, that never roams wild and has been neutered just in case she ever does get out.
If I had my way and it wasn't a crime on this area I would trap them all and have pay to have the euthanized. They have destroyed the country atmosphere of this neighborhood which was one of the major reasons we moved here.
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JAMAUGHN
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Re: Frustration

Post by JAMAUGHN »

These examples just help to demonstrate why I've started taking the opposite tact. I now tell anyone I meet that every snake they see is a Winged Cobra (Ophiophagus volans), and is too dangerous to even approach to kill it, as it will unfurl its hidden wings and attack to the throat. Also, these snakes are even more deadly after death, as DPNR has documented numerous cases of deceased Winged Cobras haunting the houses of their killers, waiting in the shadows of bathrooms in the dead of night to take revenge. I finish by saying, “Run that way, and I'll draw it off your scent!”

This story is more effective if you pronounce “Winged” as “Wing-ed.”

ImageWinged Cobra, Ophiophagus volans by J. Maughn, on Flickr

JimM

(More seriously, I've had a surprising amount of luck taking the "extra-enthusiastic" approach. I pull a double-rainbow-guy level of enthusiasm over the snake, and it seems to mollify the snake-haters a bit, and make them less likely to want to harm the snake, at least. Or maybe I just scare them off.)
hellihooks
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Re: Frustration

Post by hellihooks »

JAMAUGHN wrote: I pull a double-rainbow-guy level of enthusiasm over the snake,
I'd pay good money to see that.... :lol: :lol: :lol: jim
Jake Schneider
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Re: Frustration

Post by Jake Schneider »

JAMAUGHN wrote:
[url=https://flic.kr/p/faHQNj]Image
That's actually a cool-looking snake. What is it?

Oh, and I actually had some success today with my bus driver after we passed a Ratsnake in the road. We and a couple other people got into a discussion about snakes and everyone told their snake stories. She brought up how you have to be careful about black snakes because Copperheads will breed with Ratsnakes and make Black Snakes. I managed to convince her Copperheads and Ratsnakes are incapable of producing hybrids and she actually believed me. It really was relieving to finally get through to someone that's afraid of snakes.
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JAMAUGHN
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Re: Frustration

Post by JAMAUGHN »

It's a Monterey Ringneck.
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James Condon
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Re: Frustration

Post by James Condon »

This is an interesting thread. Keep up the good work!
I work with snakes in a unique habitat just outside Boston and encounter such "teaching opportunities" regularly. I also get reports of rattlers and such from communities in the area, and have learned something that seems important to share in this context. As unlikely as it may be, a cobra, wing-ged or otherwise, might actually show up in somebody's yard.
Several non-native species of rattlers have been collected from the Blue Hills Reservation and other towns nearby. And one time, a cottonmouth was retrieved from Houghton's pond. A real cottonmouth. I guess the lesson is to be wary when dealing with a snake story unseen. Someone could get seriously hurt, and that is never good for the snakes.
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Re: Frustration

Post by hellihooks »

our local FB 'Hi- Desert Wildlife Group' has 3,200 members and more every day, and MOST don't know a gopher from a crote. As one of the more 'herp-educated' members, it gets a little tiresome saying "that's a whiptail" or "that's a gopher snake'... but the potential to educate is enormous and effective... and reaching more people than I have in 10 years of doing herp-ed talks. :shock: :thumb: jim
Jake Schneider
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Re: Frustration

Post by Jake Schneider »

JAMAUGHN wrote:It's a Monterey Ringneck.
Oh, from the picture it look giant. I didn't realize it was small. Still a cool snake though. Do they not have rings on their neck?
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JAMAUGHN
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Re: Frustration

Post by JAMAUGHN »

Well, it came in at about 16-18", which is up there with the biggest Ringnecks I've seen. :D They do have a ring, it was just hard to see in that photo. Here's a clearer one of the same snake:

ImageMonterey Ringneck Snake, Diadophis punctatus vandenburghi by J. Maughn, on Flickr
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BDSkinner
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Re: Frustration

Post by BDSkinner »

Growing up in New Jersey, I always thought it was weird hearing stories of water moccasins about. I would pick up all the snakes around our little lake club and get an earful from some people, only to end up bringing a field guide with me to clearly point out that they do not live anywhere close to northern NJ. Being shown by a child that they were blatantly wrong usually worked in my favor, at least for the people I knew. Even living in North Carolina now that fear of snakes goes on. One of my best friends has always been afraid of snakes because when he was a kid (on the coast), he had found a bunch of little snakes and his teacher yelled at him about it saying they were copperheads. I wasn't there, but from my experiences the teacher was probably wrong. Isn't that a statement? I have since taught him how to ID venomous snakes and even made him hold a few ringnecks, although they were never whoppers like the one above!

I agree that it is easier to inform children, and that's why this misinformation and irrational ignorance is so prevalent. What has made it a problem will also absolve it with time and effort.

-Brad
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Lt.Mike
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Re: Frustration

Post by Lt.Mike »

Ignorance with snakes is something that will probably outlast my generation.
I felt frustration the other morning as i watched NJ news12 report a general interest story on a snake that was found in someones toilet. Of course the homeowner called the police.
On the bright side the responding police woman :thumb: grabbed up the snake holding it by he neck and then had another officer drive her to a nearby woodland to release it.
Kudos to her as she apparently saw the snake as a harmless and beneficial rat snake.
What bothered me was the all knowing :roll: news crew identified it as a "venomous and dangerous water moccasin" questioning the officers decision of releasing it. The sad part is that most people believe if its reported on the news it has to be fact.
The misinformation fed by the news media is so blatant when it comes to snakes....and no one really cares to get it right.
:(
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ebit123
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Re: Frustration

Post by ebit123 »

Having fun reading this thread. My son is always finding and handling northern water snakes up in Mass. Plenty of people telling me he's got a water moccasin, and quite worried. One guy kept insisting there are water moccasins in Massachusetts! Well I'm not going to get in a useless argument.....

At least, I know when he's herping where we live (RI), no chance of encountering a venemous snake (ok I guess technically eastern hognose is venomous, but....). Of course, a guy in East Providence just got bit by a copperhead (first time ever in RI!), but they're saying it was probably a stowaway on a construction truck.
(Or escaped illegal "pet").

It does sound weird to my ears when people ask if a snake is "poisonous".....but you can't get too annoyed with people who aren't into snakes not knowing the difference between poisonous and venomous. However it is very annoying when official government wildlife agencies say"poisonous snakes" in their web pages and signs.
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B.Ryerson
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Re: Frustration

Post by B.Ryerson »

It's always frustrating. What's weird is that now I'm a "professional" I get emails from people who have found my website from the college. This January I got an email from someone saying they had a cobra in their yard. In NH. In January. I asked for a photo, and they have a curved object lying on top of 2 ft of snow. When I explain that no cobras are native to the US, and even an escaped pet would be quite dead on all that snow, they insist. Then why did they email me? I asked for a closer photo (hoping to resolve this peacefully) and they said it was a stick.

The cottonmouth/watersnake mixup happens up here as well. I swallow my frustration (along with a beer or two) and tell myself that if I can convince a few people, it's worth it.
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