Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

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FlyingSquirrel
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Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by FlyingSquirrel »

Hey guys, I have some noob / stupid questions; hope you will bear with me on these...

I'm heading over to central/eastern WA soon for some nature photography. Basically any and all wildlife is my target. I've never been there; the habitat and surroundings will be foreign to me. I need to do more research, but my preliminary findings indicate that there are a lot of venomous crawlies over there. Rattlesnakes, scorpions, deadly spiders, etc. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I want to find them all!!!

Getting to some of the basic questions:
1. I figure I will be turning over rocks / debris, etc. Would a thick pair of leather gloves be a good idea? Would that protect me from most of the inverts?

2. If I were bit or stung by a spider or scorpion (or rattler!) am I pretty much SOL being out in the sagebrush and dunes? Is there something I should do, aside from trying to call 911? This sounds really stupid!

3. I'm going to be carrying a ton of heavy gear, so I don't want to get too weighted down beyond that, but I wonder if I should wear some kind of protective clothing...like something around my legs? I have some nice gaiters, but I don't know if they would protect me from a rattler bite (inverts probably couldn't make it through though)

4. My SOP is to get eye level with wildlife...I nearly always lay and crawl on the ground to get closer and better angles (basically I refuse to shoot down on any animals...aside from maybe a top down view showing camouflage attributes). Given the creatures out there, I can't help but think crawling in the sagebrush, rocks, and such is a terrible idea..but I will most likely do it anyway, unless I clearly see scorpions or rattlers nearby (not that I would see them...). Any comments, suggestions, advice on this topic? I figure if I move slowly and carefully, nothing would sting or bite unless I press down on it. :O

5. Any tips for getting closer to lizards, snakes, and inverts? Does a slow and low approach allow somewhat close shots? (like between 3-6 feet away maybe? More for rattlers of course)

6. Any other advice, comments, etc would be appreciated.

Thanks...yours truly, the crazy noob

Matt
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Noah M
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by Noah M »

Keep in mind I'm talking about experience from Indiana and Florida.
1. I figure I will be turning over rocks / debris, etc. Would a thick pair of leather gloves be a good idea? Would that protect me from most of the inverts?
It would protect you from rocks, but I have found if anything of value is under a rock that I want to hold, the lack of dexterity with leather gloves is a problem. Its just better to be careful and get some callouses.
2. If I were bit or stung by a spider or scorpion (or rattler!) am I pretty much SOL being out in the sagebrush and dunes? Is there something I should do, aside from trying to call 911? This sounds really stupid!
Don't get bit.
3. I'm going to be carrying a ton of heavy gear, so I don't want to get too weighted down beyond that, but I wonder if I should wear some kind of protective clothing...like something around my legs? I have some nice gaiters, but I don't know if they would protect me from a rattler bite (inverts probably couldn't make it through though)
I would suggest less gear, and never get close enough to a rattler where it could bite you, unless you know what you're doing (And you don't. Neither do I...)
4. My SOP is to get eye level with wildlife...I nearly always lay and crawl on the ground to get closer and better angles (basically I refuse to shoot down on any animals...aside from maybe a top down view showing camouflage attributes). Given the creatures out there, I can't help but think crawling in the sagebrush, rocks, and such is a terrible idea..but I will most likely do it anyway, unless I clearly see scorpions or rattlers nearby (not that I would see them...). Any comments, suggestions, advice on this topic? I figure if I move slowly and carefully, nothing would sting or bite unless I press down on it. :O
I find the animal I want to photograph, then get down to eye level. Just look around you before you do. I once got down on my stomach and found a nest of fire ants very quickly. I learned my lesson.
5. Any tips for getting closer to lizards, snakes, and inverts? Does a slow and low approach allow somewhat close shots? (like between 3-6 feet away maybe? More for rattlers of course)
Most anything I have hiked up had one of 3 responses. 1. It ran like heck and I never saw it again. 2. It ran like heck and stopped somewhere, in sight, and froze feeling like it was camouflaged. At that point I shot a photo of it, then slowly crept and shot again in that pattern until it runs off again, the animal has filled my frame, or I was able to grab it, which ever came first. And then 3. The animal just sat there either oblivious to me, or it felt camouflaged or was too cold to move or something.
6. Any other advice, comments, etc would be appreciated.
Don't touch anything unless you know 100% what it is. Little ID mistakes can have big consequences. Be careful, let people know where you are going, carry some water if you are going to be a while. Don't engage in tomfoolery.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by FlyingSquirrel »

captainjack0000, Thank you very much for your detailed reply. I appreciate the advice and this gives me some things to think about.

I certainly wish carrying less gear and weight was an option, but it is not. My primary purpose is photography, and most of my equipment is very heavy and big (aside from the 70-200 lens and camera, I will also be carrying another camera with a 500mm f4 IS II lens and teleconverter, a beefy tripod with gimbal head, not to mention probably a flash and bracket, among other things), plus I have to carry food, water, supplies, accessories, etc. It sucks, but I need everything with me. Leaving even some of the equipment in my car is not an option (unless I'm less than 50 feet away and can stop someone from stealing it, and unless it's not very hot in the car on a sunny day).

One advantage I have is that I do not need to capture any of the creatures. Photos will be fine, so I don't need to be picking up scorpions and doing crazy things.

Thanks again
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cbernz
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by cbernz »

If you're flipping in an area that has rattlers, you probably want to use a hook or stick or something to turn the rocks over, so the gloves might be a moot point.
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Ted
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by Ted »

In general, I would say that you probably don't need to worry too much about the inverts; if you're not planning on handling them then they probably won't be an issue, as long as you're careful where you put your hands (look under/around rocks before grabbing them). Same more or less goes with Rattlesnakes, they can camouflage well, but are easy enough to spot most of the time as long as you're paying attention. Just look around before you step/lay down/etc.

The gloves may not be a bad idea, a little protection can go a long way, but are not absolutely necessary in my experience. Same goes for gaiters/other protective clothing.

If you do get bit/stung, it's probably wise to call 911 if it's something dangerous (always call for a rattlesnake bite), but if it's just a grass spider or something then you probably shouldn't call. Make sure you can Id the dangerous animals before you go into the field, don't get bit and then wonder if it's dangerous. Again though, keep an eye out and be careful in any handling (don't handle venomous things obviously), and you'll be fine.

As far as photography goes, I think everyone here could give a different answer. Eye level is a great idea, but it can definitely be difficult to get in a good position for it. Many of the animals will probably be content enough to just sit there and let you get some pictures, but some handling may be required if you want a good picture of a lizard or nonvenomous snake, etc, that won't stay still. Also, don't obsess too much over the dangerous animals. They are worth caution, but don't pose much of a problem 99% of the time.

As for getting close to them, move purposefully. Don't be too rapid or jerky in your movements, stay relaxed and fluid and animals will usually let you approach closer. Once again, keep your eyes out. Snakes especially will often sit still and wait for you to move past them, as opposed to you having to follow or sneak up on it.

As for other advice, just the basics:

Watch where you step
Look before you put your hands somewhere
Keep a respectable distance (rattlesnakes can strike for a good proportion of their body length, my rule of thumb is to add 4ft to the snake's length and you should be fine. This distance is also often ideal for photography, since it's not too threading to the snake)

Sorry if things are too repeated, and feel free to ask for clarification of any points.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by FlyingSquirrel »

This is all great advice. Thanks a lot, everyone!
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Kyle from Carolina
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by Kyle from Carolina »

Some valuable advice that was given to me once: If you're the type to move an animal for a photo, keep temperature in mind. You don't want to spend 45 minutes composing the perfect shot with the animal sitting in the blazing sun, unable to retreat. Even having a tshirt or something to put over the animal will keep it cool and calm.

Also, be careful rock flipping in areas that don't have many sticks or branches if you aren't going to bring your own. If you flip the rock, a snake will often re-situate itself so that you can't safely put the rock right back on top of it. With a stick, you can then move a rattlesnake so that you can put the rock back to how it was and the snake can then retreat back underneath, rather than getting squished or having its rock permanently flipped.
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VanAR
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by VanAR »

FlyingSquirrel wrote: I certainly wish carrying less gear and weight was an option, but it is not. My primary purpose is photography, and most of my equipment is very heavy and big (aside from the 70-200 lens and camera, I will also be carrying another camera with a 500mm f4 IS II lens and teleconverter, a beefy tripod with gimbal head, not to mention probably a flash and bracket, among other things), plus I have to carry food, water, supplies, accessories, etc. It sucks, but I need everything with me. Leaving even some of the equipment in my car is not an option (unless I'm less than 50 feet away and can stop someone from stealing it, and unless it's not very hot in the car on a sunny day).
I recommend you make separate trips to focus on different photography subjects. There's no need to do it all in one go. The gear you describe is suited for mammal/bird photography, but nearly all of it will be a useless burden while herping or even just hiking. The 70-200 lens might be useful for mid-range lizards, but that's it. Simply carrying all of that equipment will make flipping rocks unsafe- it will increase risk of injury to your back and will compromise your center of gravity. The latter is especially dangerous if you are on a slope of any kind, or if you happen to flip a rock with something that surprises you and you have to move quickly. You might even end up dropping a rock on something and killing it. Even if you're not flipping, carrying all of that gear is going to tire you out quickly.

All you need to photograph herps and inverts well is a good macro lens and a flash. Especially if you'll be at eye level, you don't even need a tripod- just use the ground.

As for the animals- just don't put your hands, feet, or body anywhere you haven't visually confirmed that a potentially dangerous animal is not present.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Gloves can help, but as previously mentioned can detract from needed dexterity. I get a pair of work gloves, and then only wear one (on my "flippin' hand"), leaving the other hand for camera manipulation (or capture, if desired).

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned an important thing to bring along: a buddy!
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by Soopaman »

Nobody mentions wearing gaiters, which you asked about.

A lot of herpers like to argue "if you watch where you step, you won't need them." While that's true, wear some freaking gaiters. It's not worth risking safety. You can get really light bite proof turtle skin gaiters. They aren't cheap, but they're great protection and you won't really notice them there. In most cases you'll never need them. But the one time you're paying attention to one herp, bird, or whatever, and plant your foot off to the side to brace yourself for a photo... well it may just happen the you planted your foot on a rattlesnake and you were too caught up in the action of the other critter to notice. Gaiters will save you then. I personally wear bite proof boots as I like to go bounding through tall grass full of diamondbacks on the Texas coast. It'd be foolish not to!
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by chris_mcmartin »

Soopaman wrote:A lot of herpers like to argue "if you watch where you step, you won't need them." While that's true, wear some freaking gaiters. It's not worth risking safety.
Situation depending, I wear gaiters. Tall grass, thick brush, deep leaf litter, etc., especially in areas of known high volume of venomous snakes.

There are old herpers. There are bold herpers ("watch your step, and you won't need them" mindset). There are few old AND bold herpers.

8-)
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cbernz
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by cbernz »

Soopaman wrote:Nobody mentions wearing gaiters, which you asked about.

A lot of herpers like to argue "if you watch where you step, you won't need them." While that's true, wear some freaking gaiters. It's not worth risking safety. You can get really light bite proof turtle skin gaiters. They aren't cheap, but they're great protection and you won't really notice them there. In most cases you'll never need them. But the one time you're paying attention to one herp, bird, or whatever, and plant your foot off to the side to brace yourself for a photo... well it may just happen the you planted your foot on a rattlesnake and you were too caught up in the action of the other critter to notice. Gaiters will save you then. I personally wear bite proof boots as I like to go bounding through tall grass full of diamondbacks on the Texas coast. It'd be foolish not to!
I guess this depends on the type of herper and the type of person you are. I'll give the counter-argument here, which is that gaiters will protect you from snakes striking at your shin, but they aren't going to help against chiggers, fire ants, hornets, gopher holes, sharp rocks, tree roots, or any of the other hazards you might run into where you can't see your feet. I mean if you have gaiters, and you find them comfortable enough, you might as well wear them, but I try to always be hyper-vigilant whenever I am in venomous habitat, regardless of what I'm wearing. Gaiters won't help you if you trip and fall hands- or face-first onto a snake because you're distracted by something.

I borrowed a pair of gaiters on a 2-week trip to Costa Rica, but I only wore them for the first couple hours. They were just too much in the way and compromised my flexibility. I got into the habit of constantly scanning the trail ahead of me, and minesweeping the jungle floor with a stick when I (rarely) went off the trail. I've also found whenever I'm in fire ant country that I don't want to wear anything that I can't take off in under 3 seconds. Not sure how much of a concern that is in Washington, though.

I'm neither old nor bold. I don't wear gaiters, but I also don't put my foot anywhere blindly, and I'm just not going to go bounding through tall, snake-infested grass. But if you are, and you have gaiters, you should wear them. Just don't think that it makes you totally safe.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by gbin »

cbernz wrote:... I'll give the counter-argument here...
And I'll add to that counterargument: People who substitute equipment for their own vigilance and caution to protect them from harm often become complacent about their risk of harm, and as a result end up taking greater risks than they otherwise would. It's an unfortunate aspect of human nature. If you put yourself within striking distance of a venomous snake in anything short of complete body armor then you are taking a risk that such a snake will somehow bite you. People wearing this or that piece of protective gear have managed to get bitten before. Your eyes and the brain they're connected to are your first, best defense.

Keep that in mind whether or not you choose to wear protective gear, Matt, and keep in mind, too, the situations where people are especially prone to getting careless, e.g. stepping over obstacles or rock-climbing in such a manner that they can't see where they're putting their hands or feet, maneuvering around a venomous snake that they've seen while not noticing another very nearby, taking a break - and dropping their guard in the process - because they've grown tired. (I once had a very woods-wise and snake-wary field assistant nearly sit on a small venomous snake coiled on a log until I warned him away, because in his weariness he neglected to do as good a job protecting his butt as he always did protecting his hands and feet. Never mind the injury, imagine the embarrassment a bite in such a place would bring! :lol: )

Taking a buddy is another very good piece of advice you've already been given in this thread.

Don't forget to post some pictures of what you find on this or the other message boards here at FHF, to reward everyone for their advice! ;)

Gerry
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

I've also found whenever I'm in fire ant country that I don't want to wear anything that I can't take off in under 3 seconds.
Good Lord, do I ever hate fire ants.
I've never been to the northwest, so I don't know anything about it. I will add to the general safety discussion based solely on my experiences in the southeast. When in moccasin-heavy areas, I always watch very carefully where I put my feet. I was very surprised one day to nearly run into a moccasin with my face (it was in a small tree).
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by jamezevanz »

I was stationed in Everett for a few years and went east to herp (and escape the rain) regularly. I was something of a noob at the time as well, having not had a chance to herp since I was a kid as a result of growing up in Alaska. I learned a few lessons during that time about the exact things you're asking about.

First, as a professional photographer who loves to carry an assortment of big fast heavy lenses in the field, I had to learn to prioritize. If I'm going looking for herps, all I'm bringing is camera body, a wide angle (for in-habitat shots), a macro, a speed light and a portable soft box. And even that will feel like a lot if you're herping hard. If you're rolling with a 500mm plus everything else, you're never going to get far from the car and you're certainly not going to do much rock flipping.

Always look twice before you grab a critter. The first Northern Pacific Rattlesnake I came across was in an area where I had already seen several gopher snakes that day. In the tall grass, all I could see were the dark bands toward the tail as it moved along and it looked like another gopher. When I reached down to grab the section I could see, I hesitated and glanced up in the direction it was headed. Sticking out of the grass a foot ahead was the business end of a rattler. I should never have gotten as close as I did without looking closer to make sure I knew what I was chasing.

Inverts in WA, are not really worth worrying about. The scorps are tiny and harmless. There are black widows but just don't stick your hands in any webby looking holes or cracks what you can't see into and you'll be fine.

For safety gear, I do recommend wearing gaiters-- I had another close encounter when I discovered a NorPac den site when the scree slide I was traversing started rattling beneath and all around me. Coupled with a few close encounters in tall grass both in WA and CA and I think gaiters in snake country are always worth wearing, if only for a little peace of mind. Finally, if you're going to manipulate rattlers in any way for photos (most would recommend not doing so but eventually most of us do) carry a snake hook. They also double as a walking stick and allow you to peek under a/c without risking your fingers. Wear gloves anyway though, you'll need them for flipping rocks (and putting them back as they were found).

Finding animals was mostly a factor of finding promising looking habitat (a/c, nearby water sources) and hitting it when the weather was good. Spring and early summer were really good for finding snakes on the crawl.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by hellihooks »

All I can say, Rocky... is 'Bullwinkle' is a LOT MORE intense, in person... :crazyeyes: :D jim
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VanAR
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by VanAR »

I'm on the fence regarding gaiters. I agree with Gerry's point that simply wearing protective equipment may make people less vigilant, and in some cases it may even make people more bold (see those who dumbly catch vipers with welding gloves). Equipment can, and does, fail, and you can't rely on it for 100% of your safety.

That said, if you are newb when it comes to spotting venomous snakes, its not a bad idea. I wore gaiters the first two years I tracked rattlesnakes because I couldn't always see them in the leaf litter. Once I became comfortable with spotting them from a distance, I stopped.

In the absence of gaiters, I recommend heavy long pants and sturdy hiking boots. They are heavy enough to protect against most things you will encounter, and even offer a minimal level of protection from snakes (note- not enough to rely on absolutely). They're better than shorts and tevas.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by Andrew G »

I am pro wearing gloves when flipping. Last year I was hit by scorpions that were on the edges of rocks two outings in a row. From my understanding most scorpions in the U.S. aren't very dangerous, but those stings certainly did hurt. Be careful out there and stay aware of your surroundings. I hope you have success and see some cool species!
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by TravisK »

Matt,

Being that we are both in the Northwest and assuming that you are referring to the NW. You don't need to worry about the two species of scorpion we have. The black widow (Latrodectus hesperus) is the only spider species in the NW that I have ever encountered that poses any kind of 'threat'. If you are in central WA, that is where I see them the most, then a pair of gloves for flipping is not a bad idea. They really are not very defensive at all and one would pretty much have to unknowingly stick their hand in a web to trigger a defensive response. They are actually rather nice for photos too.

Crotes on the hand are what you need to watch out for. I spent a whole 3-4 day camping trip with crotes in Central WA 2 years ago only to wake up on the last day and almost get tagged. We had just packed up camp at a pretty busy campground and were checking out some Eleodes beetles when I looked down and realized my left foot was about 5 inches from a rattlesnake and I was in shorts and running shoes :shock: . I kinda froze for a second before jerking my leg back as the snake struck. Through dumb luck the snake missed and I walked away just a little shaken. But it could have been much worse. Not the dumbest 'encounter' I have ever had with a rattlesnake but I certainly have a whole lot of respect for these animals compared to before I got into this hobby. Crotes are nothing to screw around with or take for granted! Be careful with them and if you don't have a snake hook, get one if you are going to be in crote country.

Take care Matt and hopefully I will get to meet you on one or more of the NW Chapter group outings this year.


Cheers,
Travis
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by chris_mcmartin »

VanAR wrote:I'm on the fence regarding gaiters. I agree with Gerry's point that simply wearing protective equipment may make people less vigilant, and in some cases it may even make people more bold
The key word is "may." I consider myself a seasoned herper, yet I wear them in certain conditions. To me, wearing gaiters isn't an obligation to act stupid(er), they're just an additional means of protection (on top of watching where one puts one's hands and feet). My eyes aren't as good as they used to be. :)

The gaiters are also good at protecting against cacti and other sharp, poke-y vegetation.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by BethH »

A group from my university went to Costa Rica. They did a forest/jungle tour, and were told to wear big rubber ditch boots. These were to keep pit vipers from sensing their lower legs and feet as heat sources. It made sense to me. Would wearing boots and long pants, along with serving as a buffer in the case of a bite, hide/disorient the snake from knowing exactly where your leg or foot really is? Beth
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by cbernz »

BethH wrote:A group from my university went to Costa Rica. They did a forest/jungle tour, and were told to wear big rubber ditch boots. These were to keep pit vipers from sensing their lower legs and feet as heat sources. It made sense to me. Would wearing boots and long pants, along with serving as a buffer in the case of a bite, hide/disorient the snake from knowing exactly where your leg or foot really is? Beth
That sounds like BS to me. You're not going to get tagged because a snake senses your body heat, you're going to get tagged because you step on or next to a snake and it bites defensively. A decent sized Fer-de-lance will probably go through rubber boots like butter. They are good to wear because rubber is the only thing that will keep you dry in the rainforest.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by Antonsrkn »

That sounds like BS to me. You're not going to get tagged because a snake senses your body heat, you're going to get tagged because you step on or next to a snake and it bites defensively. A decent sized Fer-de-lance will probably go through rubber boots like butter. They are good to wear because rubber is the only thing that will keep you dry in the rainforest.
Agreed. I don't think rubber boots are going to prevent a snake from striking at all. And as for the fangs penetrating The rubber might stop a smallish fer de lance or a hog nosed pit or something similar but I wouldnt even count on that.
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Tim Borski
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by Tim Borski »

I wear gaiters...as much for cactus, Spanish bayonets and sand pickers as anything else. (But they have saved my butt twice after dark, solo, a long way from the truck.)

Use the gaiters. Get used to wearing them but don't let them think you can get careless.

I used to constantly tell my kids "watch the approach..."
I don't need to tell them that anymore because I see them doing it all the time without thinking.

Tim
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by BethH »

cbernz wrote:
BethH wrote:A group from my university went to Costa Rica. They did a forest/jungle tour, and were told to wear big rubber ditch boots. These were to keep pit vipers from sensing their lower legs and feet as heat sources. It made sense to me. Would wearing boots and long pants, along with serving as a buffer in the case of a bite, hide/disorient the snake from knowing exactly where your leg or foot really is? Beth
That sounds like BS to me. You're not going to get tagged because a snake senses your body heat, you're going to get tagged because you step on or next to a snake and it bites defensively. A decent sized Fer-de-lance will probably go through rubber boots like butter. They are good to wear because rubber is the only thing that will keep you dry in the rainforest.
Ok. I'm glad to hear your view, and that of Antonsrkn. Thanks.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by FlyingSquirrel »

Thanks a million to everyone for your replies.

Do I really need special snake gaiters? I've never seen them, are they stiff and limit your flexibility? Are they heavy? The only gaiters I've ever worn are my hiking gaiters (OR crocodiles). I doubt they would do anything against a snake bite.

FYI I am not the type of person to think that protective equipment or any other type of gear is an excuse to act stupid. I'm a very cautious person and use my brain...any equipment I use for safety is simply an added measure. Kind of like wearing a seat belt in your car.

I am not a herper obviously, so I have none of this gear. I want to be clear that this whole herping thing on this trip is in addition to other wildlife and nature shooting, so I'm not ready to go all out yet; certainly I will make future herping trips with that as the primary focus.

As far as a hook, the best I can do for now will be a hiking pole..and I won't be handling anything..I would just use the hiking pole to probe around if I'm in any grass, shrubbery, or boulders, to make sure I hear or see the snake instead of walking right into it.

I'm still working out the logistics of the equipment issue. I understand and agree with the idea that it's best to make separate trips and focus on one thing....but I don't have that luxury on this trip. It's a 3 hour drive to get anywhere near the area one way, (not to mention stopping for breaks on the drive), plus driving all around looking for places, plus all of the gas money during the trip, and then to make it worth that time and gas, I need to make it multiple days, so add hotel cost, and food cost...well, you get the idea, it's expensive. In this case I'm taking off an entire week of work (paid). So, I am bringing the two setups of gear (big lens, and zoom lens) since I have to make the most of all of this time and money. I get it, really I do, and I know it's going to be a pain. Normally for closer trips I do pick one target and bring only that gear. I considered that maybe for some of the time when I'm using the big glass, I could leave the 2nd camera, zoom, flash etc in the car, but I don't like the idea. And I am absolutely not going to part with my big glass setup at any point on the entire trip. Stays with me no matter what. So when using the zoom and 2nd body, I would then be carrying everything. I think I'm going to power through it. I do work out a bit a few times a week (cardio and weights) but I'm by no means a beast.

The 70-200 will work for landscapes / scenery, general nature shots, larger/closer wildlife, should be good for snakes and some lizards. I can throw on an extension tube and instantly have a powerful macro lens with a good working distance still. I tested it yesterday and it worked great.

Ok, I'm rambling and I don't know if I forgot anything, but that's it for now.

Hope you guys can offer a little more insight into some of the other questions above. Thanks!

ps I look forward to meeting up with some people in my area some time. Not sure how to get that ball rolling other than to keep posting on this forum so you get to know me. I live 30 min north of Seattle. If anyone wants to meet up some place around there or within an hours drive of there, let me know.
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VanAR
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by VanAR »

BethH wrote:A group from my university went to Costa Rica. They did a forest/jungle tour, and were told to wear big rubber ditch boots. These were to keep pit vipers from sensing their lower legs and feet as heat sources. It made sense to me. Would wearing boots and long pants, along with serving as a buffer in the case of a bite, hide/disorient the snake from knowing exactly where your leg or foot really is? Beth
It's BS for several reasons even beyond what has already been stated. First, even if boots did "hide" your legs from being sensed by the IR/heat-sensing pits, the snakes can still see just fine, and if they can see they can strike accurately regardless of whether they sense the heat.

Second, the pit organs don't just sense heat sources. They detect the contrast boundaries between objects of different surface temperatures. The information they collect is spatially mapped in the same region of the brain as visual information. Thus, the pit organs allow them to literally "see" objects based on heat alone. Imagine an ice cube in front of a room-temperature surface (rock, wall, etc.). Pit vipers can "see" the ice cube based on its lack of heat relative to the surface just as easily as they could see a mammal based on its greater heat (relative to the surface). The pit organs are so sensitive that they can detect contrasting differences in temperatures less than 0.01 degrees C.

So, the boots would only work to "hide" you from the pit organs of a snake if the surfaces of the boots were the exact same temperature as all of their surroundings- and that includes everything from the leaf litter/puddle/dirt you stand in, to the trees/bushes behind you, to the air surrounding you, and even to the lower parts of your legs not covered by the boots. Any thermal contrasts between the boots and those other surfaces would make them instantly "visible" to the pit organs.
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gbin
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by gbin »

FlyingSquirrel wrote:Do I really need special snake gaiters?...
That's really up to you. As you can see, there are those of us who never wear such gear, those of us who do sometimes and those of us who do quite regularly. All we can do is advise you based on our own experience and understanding; you are still the one who has to decide how you will behave and what will keep you as safe as you want to be while behaving so. Fortunately, unless you go out there and do things that are truly reckless, the odds of you suffering a venomous snakebite are actually pretty low, regardless. We're just trying to inform you (each of us in the way we think best) to help you prepare. If it were me I'd leave the armor behind and stay alert - all the more so considering all the other gear you plan to bring with you - but I'm me and you're you. ;)

And by the way, I wasn't talking about people using protective gear as an excuse to act stupid, or at least not mostly. As I said, I think it's natural for folks to transfer some of their trust from their eyes and brains to their equipment when they're consciously selecting that equipment to help keep them safe. It's also hard for them to know when they're crossing the line from "some" to "too much." It just doesn't seem right to me to dismiss the phenomenon as stupidity when it's one to which we're pretty much all susceptible to one degree or another.

Related to the subject of big rubber ditch boots keeping one safe from pit viper bites in Central America: One wet night while road cruising in Guatemala I came upon a nice, big Bothrops asper. It wasn't in any hurry to go anywhere so I pulled up alongside it in my car to admire it for a moment. It suddenly transformed into the beast from hell, even to the point of coming at my car and striking the lower edge of my car door and the wheel beneath me repeatedly. (Through numerous encounters with the species in varied circumstances, I came to think of them as generally quite placid when found during the day, and often quite aggressive when found at night.) I don't know whether it was a realistic concern on my part, but I even feared the snake might give me a flat tire with one or more of the bites it landed on my tire. (Hey, I've gotten a flat in the AZ desert from driving over cactus spines.) I do know there's absolutely no way rubber boots would have prevented that snake from landing bites on my legs had I been standing next to it, nor do I believe such boots would have kept its fangs from reaching me through the boots.

Gerry
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Kent VanSooy
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by Kent VanSooy »

To gaiter or not to gaiter has a habitat component to it - here in SoCal, and especially right now, there's tall grass on the hillsides, and you simply can't herp effectively without walking through it, and potentially putting your foot next to a hidden snake.

An alternative to gaiters are snake boots, which I've come to prefer. It's one less piece of equipment to worry about, and they're reasonably comfortable and light. Cabelas carries them.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by hellihooks »

No one is more careful than the naked herper... :crazyeyes: laugh if you want...but take it from me...it's true... :lol: jim
luv_the_smellof_musk
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by luv_the_smellof_musk »

I think the biggest risks will be driving to and from the site and twisting an ankle, based on my experience. Also bring toiletries and water, you'll need them at some point and won't want to be without them. I wouldn't try flipping rocks with a hook. It sounds like a great idea only until you realize how much rocks weight and how easily they slip. Works great for tin, though. I've lifted hundreds of rocks with black widows under them, they are not any bother and I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being bitten. Scorpions occasionally get a rock flipper, but the sting isn't anything to worry about. Venomous snakes under cover do not generally strike people, if that were true nearly every herper would be missing digits. They are usually quite stunned when uncovered. Driving on the other hand, well, that's pretty dangerous and I imagine we all know someone who has lost a life that way. In Latin America a lot of people seemed convinced on rubber boots. I think that's a bit silly, however, I've often used them because I knew we were going to have to walk through muddy trails. This might make you laugh but I was more worried about turning rabid from a vampire bat than being bitten by a snake. I probably shouldn't have watched that film about what rabies does to you lol
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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by chris_mcmartin »

luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:In Latin America a lot of people seemed convinced on rubber boots. I think that's a bit silly,
Let's say you know a kid who's afraid to go to sleep because of monsters under his bed. You give the kid a "special teddy bear that wards off monsters," and tell him as long as he's holding the teddy bear the monsters will stay away. The kid is then able to go to sleep.

Rubber boots seem to be the special teddy bear that keeps some people safe in Latin American rain forests.
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dery
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by dery »

TravisK wrote:Matt,

They really are not very defensive at all and one would pretty much have to unknowingly stick their hand in a web to trigger a defensive response. They are actually rather nice for photos too.



Cheers,
Travis
The black widows I encounter (Male and Female) are a pain to photograph. They always ball up or retreat. When they don't, it's hard to decide which sex makes better pics.
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kricket
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by kricket »

I wear leather gloves when I flip logs/rocks for two reasons: (1) If there are black widows, I might accidentally grab one when flipping and get bit (like other have said, they're not at all aggressive—people get bit because they don't see them and grab them) and (2) wasps! I have been saved half a dozen times from wasp stings when I accidentally flipped a wasp nest. They always go for my hands first and they can't sting through my leather gloves (though they try). If you get loose-fitting gloves, then you can take them off really fast if you need to catch something. I never try to catch any herps while wearing gloves; you'll just lose them.

Of course, gloves are not going to protect you from rattlesnake bites, so make sure you flip forwards, not backwards. That is, stand behind the rock you're going to flip and pull it towards you. That way if there is something under the rock and you've disturbed it then you have the rock between you and that unhappy animal. I always flip the other way because there are no venomous snakes at my research sites and I don't want to lose my quarry. As was mentioned, a snake hook isn't going to help flip anything but small rocks. I do know someone who herps with a hoe, which is actually good at flipping rocks and logs at a safe distance (and a bit back-saving), but I don't feel comfortable doing that since I'd be afraid of accidentally hurting something.

As for the gaiters or snake boots—wear them! I know people who radiotrack rattlers and the equipment will tell them there's a snake right there but they still don't see them even when they're standing right next to them! So even experienced herpetologists who are specifically looking for the snakes won't necessarily see them. You should still be vigilant (use the snake hook for poking around in places—not your hands!) but it's better safe than sorry.

Have fun! —Kara
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MontyNajar
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by MontyNajar »

I work with electrical & mechanical hazards where people lose fingers & occasionally don't survive. So I am SUPER-CAPTAIN-SAFETY minded and this spills over into field herping.

First of all - safety is about opportunity. If you don't want to get bit, STAY OUT OF THE STRIKE RANGE and at least double the distance you estimate. 80% or more of venomous bites occur when someone is trying to handle / kill / move the animal.

The odds of randomly walking thru the woods and taking a strike, are incredibly small. There is even a term commonly used for this: "Legitimate bite". Believe it or not (after the CAPTAIN-SAFETY speech) I don't use snake boots or anything like that. The fact that I pay attention and that animals are getting the hell out of the way at the first chance, means that it is super-duper rare to have a problem, unless you're doing something un-wise.

Sometimes 'safety' tools can also breed over-confidence and complaisance and work against you. I don't bring a parachute when I fly and I wouldn't wear a bullet proof vest if I were to go shooting with friends. If there is a chance the plane is going to crash or that I will be shot - safety has already left the building!!

I'm not opposed to safety devices at all, but the point is - I don't care if you're wearing gloves or not - if you put yourself in a position to get bit, then you are a FOOL either way.

My list looks like this - buddy system, water, cell signal, gps, others know where & when you are, focus on RESOURCES, PAY ATTENTION and then lastly - accept the fact that you are going to 'miss' a lot of great shots or possible opportunities because you're not willing to stress the animal or risk your own neck. Let it go.
jimoo742
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by jimoo742 »

chris_mcmartin wrote:
luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:
Rubber boots seem to be the special teddy bear that keeps some people safe in Latin American rain forests.

They seem to help with ants. I've not had ants ever swarm them, but I have had them swarm hiking boots. Plus they just keep you dry.
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by jamezevanz »

It seems hubristic to me for anyone to think they can spot every venomous snake before they find themselves within striking distance. Kricket and Kent hit the nail on the head. If you are herping in thick brush with a high population of venomous snakes, it's not a matter of if but when you're going to put your foot within range of an unseen one. That doesn't mean it will strike, most likely It won't (I've been lucky every time it's happened to me) but there's no sense ignoring the possibility. As herpers we take on extra risk by choosing to leave the trail and enter areas of optimal snake habitat and poor visibility. As such it behooves us to take measures to mitigate that risk so as not to be made to look like fools in the media. When a headline reads "guy looking for snakes gets bit by venomous snake" it reflects badly on our hobby and renforces public opinion that snakes are "bad."

In any case, it does depend on what risks you take. When I know I won't be leaving an established trail or roadside, I herp in tennis shoes or flip flops. If I'm going to go bust through brush in areas of SoCal where the helleri and ruber densities are ridiculous or stomp around the edge of an overgrown lake in Florida where there's a cottonmouth every five feet, you can bet I'll be wearing gaiters. I may see 9 out of 10 snakes long before I get near them. But my experience with Murphy's law indicates that the 10th snake will be the one who's already having a bad day when I step on his tail.
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gbin
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by gbin »

Do we need to yet again draw a bunch of foolish lines in the sand over the issue of protective clothing for herp hunting in the field? Really? Couldn't we, just this once, accept that there are differences of opinion among us on this subject, and the fact that someone holds an opinion contrary to our own doesn't mean that we're good/smart/experienced/etc. herpers and they're bad/stupid/novice/etc. herpers?

:roll:

Gerry
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Re: Noob questions re: technique, safety, etc

Post by chris_mcmartin »

jimoo742 wrote:
chris_mcmartin wrote:
luv_the_smellof_musk wrote:
Rubber boots seem to be the special teddy bear that keeps some people safe in Latin American rain forests.

They seem to help with ants. I've not had ants ever swarm them, but I have had them swarm hiking boots. Plus they just keep you dry.
Yes, absolutely. I was referring to the (false) sense of security the boots offer to those afraid of snakes, who would otherwise never set foot in the areas in question.
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