Sonora/Tantilla in March?

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Rancorrye
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Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by Rancorrye »

I am headed down to Zion National Park in mid March with my wife for a little vacation. Sonora and Tantilla are high on my list for Washington County and I am hoping to get a little herping in while I am down there. Does anybody know much about either species in Utah? I have been spending quite a bit of time on Google Earth and have picked out a few spots that I think might be a good start. I don't see much of either posted in the RM Chapter so was just wondering if anyone has had much luck with these guys. Do you guys think March is to early to start looking for them? I haven't been down to this area this early in the year. Are conditions good for much besides some lizards? I will also be down in Washington County the first week in May. Will conditions be better for them then? From what I understand they are quite common/abundant in their habitat. Its just getting into the right habitat. Any help on possible habitat preference or tips for these guys would be appreciated.

Thanks
-Rye
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

March seems a little early to me. I've only found Tantilla road cruising. I've flipped a few Sonora and May would be the one month I would choose to flip. Conditions are looking pretty dry for spring flipping but things could always change.

I agree for Sonora its getting in the right habitat at the right time. I might have a habitat picture I can post.
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

These photos are from Lincoln County Nevada (5/14/2012). The habitat was very friable soil, with nice rocks along a graded road. Great Basin /Mojave Desert ecotone. I was surprised to see this snake (and several sheds here). It was really dry, bone dry under the rocks.

I've also seen Sonora along streams further north in rockier, more mountainous country. I get the impression that they are spottily distributed, surface active for a brief window, and locally abundant in the Mojave and Great Basin deserts. One thing that has kept me flipping for them has been finding sheds under rocks.


Habitat
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Habitat
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Sonora
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Brian Eagar
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by Brian Eagar »

It all depends on the weather. It is so dry and cold down there right now. I was there this last weekend. Still snow in some areas on north facing sides. Tons of dead palm trees. I'm sure lots of reptiles died hiding in their usual not deep enough spots.

I've flipped both Tantilla and Sonora in the same habitat in March. If temps aren't at least 50 at night and if there isn't at least a little moisture under rocks then don't bother. March is early.
Key time is mid-april to mid-may for flipping them in Wash county but only with moisture. They are both very widespread in Washington county and aren't dependent on nearby surface moisture at all.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/utahherps/ ... 382635914/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/utahherps/ ... 359694117/
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Rancorrye
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by Rancorrye »

Thanks for the replies and pictures guys. With the fairly dry year last year and this year not looking like it will be much better; do you think I would be better off looking in an area with a water source? I have 3 or 4 spots I want to look, 1 of them has a permanent water source near. Or as long as there is some surface moisture under the rocks it still shouldn't matter much?
Bob McKeever
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by Bob McKeever »

I don't do much flipping but I've run into a few Sonora active on the surface in March (in southern Nevada, not too far away from your target area). Locations were of two types: washes & canyon bottoms (neither with permanent water anywhere nearby) & irrigated lawns near natural desert margins. Air temps in all cases were 65F & above.

As for Tantilla, I've recorded almost all of my observations May-August & via road-cruising.

Good luck
Bob
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AndyO'Connor
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by AndyO'Connor »

If it hasn't rained recently, or there isn't some noticeable moisture under the rocks you are flipping, you will likely not see any Sonora, especially in March when it's cooler at night. When the conditions are right, Sonora are much more surface active than people think, I've seen several roadcruising as the sun is setting, and I've found 4 on the crawl, 2 at dusk, and 2 a couple hours before sunset, but in shady areas near plant cover.

If you are finding sheds you are at least in the right place. Aside for looking under rocks, focus on rocks that are at the edge of a wash, on the side of a hill or at the top of a wash/ridge between two washes. I usually don't see their sheds or them under rocks in the middle of a wash, especially washes that will get water flow under heavy rains.
Jimi
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by Jimi »

Sorry Rye I don't know either in Utah very well, but have a little experience with each, around the SW. I've seen probably triple or quadruple the Sonora, versus T hobartsmithi. So I'll focus on Sonora.
Sonora are much more surface active than people think, I've seen several roadcruising as the sun is setting, and I've found 4 on the crawl, 2 at dusk, and 2 a couple hours before sunset, but in shady areas near plant cover.
My experiences mirror this - they do come out and move around, and not only after dark. And of course flipping works too, in the rather narrow circumstances everyone here is describing (temps, moisture, etc). Rocks of all shapes and sizes, "logs" (incl yucca), all sorts of trash - I think anything is fair game as long as conditions underneath are hospitable.

Incidentally I have not been impressed by their cold tolerance, either while flipping or cruising. On reflection, they seem to like it pretty balmy to be surface-active. So for flipping I would avoid cold wet conditions under your surface objects - if you have to go early you might concentrate on small thin cover objects on coarse-textured soils (e.g., sandstone flakes along wash margins or S-facing rimrock). Not deeply-set round boulders in heavier clayey soils (such as you'd find in the middle of a lava flow). Just a thought.

I would also reiterate Eagar's comment about "don't be too hung up on nearby surface water". Bryan's photos illustrate the point I think. I once found a couple of Sonora just southwest of Death Valley NP. No perennial surface water there, but there was pretty dense shrub cover - as in Bryan's photos. Actually the spot looked quite a bit like that, plant-wise - it was probably around 3000' elevation. Topographically it was similar, too - a long well-drained slope, a bajada.

Finally, mid March does feel a bit early as high and far north as Zion. I would think your May trip would be more favorable, just by the calendar. Dry spring though, so the window may have already shut for flipping down there. We shall see...

Pretty general but hopefully some help.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Rancorrye
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by Rancorrye »

Thanks guys. Your comments have helped clear up a few of the questions I had about these species. It seems that Sonora are more active than I had previously thought. In the habitat photos from Bryan and Brian there is quite a bit of vegetation and what Andy was describing finding them near plant cover; in anyone's experience has vegetation played any factor in finding them? Has anyone found them in areas with little or no vegetation?
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AndyO'Connor
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by AndyO'Connor »

I haven't really although I did find sheds under rocks on a talus slope just above a wash and there was not much vegetation on the actual hillside, it was very nearby. Here are some pictures of habitat that I usually find them common in Nevada, similar to Utah.

Not exactly where Mack is standing, but at the edge of the cut in the hillside in the background.
Image

Ignore the leopard lizard, the rocks that it is sitting on had a shed skin under them.
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Literally stopped the truck here to take a picture of the hills and happened to look down and just crawling away from the road was an adult Sonora. As you can see, very FEW rocks here, but there were rocks on the surface around some of the bushes that you can't see because they were overgrown. It was also in direct sunlight before the shadow of the truck covered it. Not sure what it was doing, you can tell there is still a couple hours of light left.
Image
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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Hi, Rye. Found this Tantilla hobartsmithi on January 25th, 2014, at about 4,000 ft. elevation, at 70^F....
Image
Image
It was only about 7 inches long. Southwestern blackhead snakes are really tiny.

It was active under a medium sized rock and the soil was fairly dry and sandy underneath. The location was also near a moist canyon, but not in the canyon. It was Arizona Upland Desertscrub. Usually I find blackhead snakes in the river floodplain in my area at about 3,000 ft. elevation, in March or April, but I've found two others near the mtns in the past. We've had a mild winter, so far, in southern AZ, and I only went out, because the temps were around 70^, or better, and a few lizards were out. BTW, nighttime temps were in the low-40's at the time.

Best of luck...Terry
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Rancorrye
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Re: Sonora/Tantilla in March?

Post by Rancorrye »

Thanks Terry
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