NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

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ratsnakehaven
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NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Looks like the Rocky Mountain Chapter is hosting the National Meeting this year in Rodeo, N. M., from August 29th to September 1...
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... 98#p212798

Thinking we might combine our Monsoon Outing/AZ Chapter with the National Meet? Just an idea... :beer:

Terry
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Chris Smith
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by Chris Smith »

Is there anyone from NAFHA - Arizona Chapter with a AZ G&F contact? It would be great if we can get a blanket NAFHA scientific permit to cover out-of-state visitors during this meeting. Obviously we can provide all data collected to AZ G&F as part of the permit (voucher photos/recordings only, but we could inquire about their desire for roadkill specimens for some species).

I am happy to make contact with AZ G&F if desired.

I think the NAFHA meeting would qualify: http://www.azgfd.gov/eservices/special_ ... tion.shtml

-Chris
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ThamnElegans24
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by ThamnElegans24 »

I don't think that's going to be necessary Chris. If out of state herpers stick with license holding residents there shouldn't be a problem. And isn't collecting highly frowned upon during National Meetings?

That sounds good to me Terry. I was also thinking about maybe setting up some other trips this year. Greenlee County really needs some attention, as does northern AZ.
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by azatrox »

I'm sure the state would LOVE it if all out of state people would get out of state licenses, but that isn't likely to happen. As far as a blanket permit to cover the event, that's an interesting idea that may or may not be possible, I really don't know.

What I do know is that if one plans on manipulating animals in any way, they need a license. If all one does is walk around and take in situ photos, then technically speaking no license is required as you are not pursuing the animals per se...You're simply photographing what you see...Of course, one better not be in possession of hooks, tongs, etc. if that's the case.

If one has a license and goes out with someone that doesn't, then I'd think that as long as the person with the license is the one doing any posing/manipulating, you'd be good.

May want to get clarification from AzG&F just to be sure.

-Kris
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Biker Dave
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by Biker Dave »

According to the law... if you are "pursuing" you need a license, whether you handle an animal or not.

I'll ask the people I know to see about the scientific permit.
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Chris Smith
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by Chris Smith »

NAFHA does have a no collection rule but since "pursuing" and temporarily capturing (i.e. holding) is considered "take", I think it would be good to have a group scientific collectors permit for this meeting (and each NAFHA member should have a copy on his/her person - this is what we did in Illinois).

Plus, getting this sort of permit helps with NAFHAs credibility in the state and shows that we want to abide by the state rules/regulations and collect important data for the state agency (not just work within the "gray area" of what is and is not legal).

It would be great to have a local person be the #1 contact on the permit but I am happy to assist if they want someone with a natural resources background.

-Chris
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by hellihooks »

What are the licensing requirements for NM, in case someone actually wants to herp there? :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by herpseeker1978 »

hellihooks wrote:What are the licensing requirements for NM, in case someone actually wants to herp there? :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim
That has been addressed here:
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =9&t=18275

Josh
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by ratsnakehaven »

ThamnElegans24 wrote:I don't think that's going to be necessary Chris. If out of state herpers stick with license holding residents there shouldn't be a problem. And isn't collecting highly frowned upon during National Meetings?

That sounds good to me Terry. I was also thinking about maybe setting up some other trips this year. Greenlee County really needs some attention, as does northern AZ.

I would be up for a Mt. Graham trip, and we could hit up Greenlee County on that trip too... 8-)
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by hellihooks »

herpseeker1978 wrote:
hellihooks wrote:What are the licensing requirements for NM, in case someone actually wants to herp there? :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim
That has been addressed here:
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =9&t=18275

Josh
thanks Josh :thumb:
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by AndyO'Connor »

ThamnElegans24 wrote:I don't think that's going to be necessary Chris. If out of state herpers stick with license holding residents there shouldn't be a problem.
That may or may not be possible for everyone. Mack, Josh, and I are going to be down there the whole week before the trip and although we'd love to meet up with people, it's likely that we'll be alone in our rental most of the time. I wondered if just one of us needed a permit in the car while roadcruising and such, and we'd only all need them if we are all carrying hooks or anything considered a tool of the trade during hikes. Anyways, we all planned and budgeted for individual permits in each state. It would be cool if an official event blanket permit were covered for those 3 days, could save us some money.
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by azatrox »

According to the law... if you are "pursuing" you need a license, whether you handle an animal or not.

Correct/ However, if I'm hiking and happen to spot a snake am I "pursuing" if I take in situ photos without influencing it in any way? No....Not any more than I'm "pursuing" the birds I see, the trees or bees or anything else I may see while hiking. As such, I wouldn't need a hunting license.

This is an important distinction...In order to be able to claim that the snake sighting was "incidental" to my primary activity of hiking, I can't have a hook or bags or tongs....Having such in my possession implies that my primary activity isn't simply hiking, but actively pursuing reptiles.

-Kris
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by ThomWild »

I quickly glanced at the AZF&G website, am I right to assume that I would need the temp hunting/fishing combo? Is there an additional habitat stamp or anything similar that I would need to get?

-Thomas Wilder
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Chris Smith
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by Chris Smith »

People were stopped at the NC NAFHA meeting last year, and while no one got into any serious trouble (I don't think), we (NAFHA) would have looked better if we would have gotten a scientific permit for the event (like we did in Illinois).

-Chris
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by AndyO'Connor »

Well Chris, to be fair, there was a scientific collection permit issued in NC, there was just some mix up with who it covered, and for what it covered. I agree though, if we could all get one, it helps legitimize us. If we don't get one, and someone in the group gets busted for something and drops the event name in the conversation, it quickly besmirches us.
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by azatrox »

I quickly glanced at the AZF&G website, am I right to assume that I would need the temp hunting/fishing combo? Is there an additional habitat stamp or anything similar that I would need to get?

In AZ, I only get the annual hunting license. I believe it covers toads, frogs, and gummy lizards....

Pardon the correction. If you intend on pursuing amphibians (or invasive softshell turtles), you'll need a fishing license. All other reptiles (other than said invasive softshell turtles) require a hunting license. No additional herp stamp is available or required.

If you've been playing with amphibians or softshells with nothing more than a hunting license, then you've been doing so with the incorrect license, and that is (technically) a citeable offense.

I have read that they have changed the time frame. An annual hunting license is good for a year from the date of purchase (no longer ending Dec. 31st).

Licenses are now issued (beginning in 2014) on a rolling calendar (vs. a standard calendar) year basis. If you purchase your license(s) on April 6th, your license will be good until the following April 5th. Gone are the days of the Jan 1 - Dec. 31 timeframe.

This new format allows people to more fully maximize the value of their licenses, as very little herping takes place in December, January or February, and with the old system you're essentially paying to NOT use the license during these months. With the old system, if you buy your license on April 6th then you're essentially buying an 8 month license. Either way, you're basically paying a 12 month price for a 8-9 month product.

Good move by AzG&F to change the format.

-Kris
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by Biker Dave »

This topic has been hashed and rehashed multiple times on these forums. And usually the out of state folks (non Arizona peeps) are the ones who say they have always done it with out this license or with that license....

The local herpers here in Arizona will tell you that our Game and Fish Officers are very knowledgeable about herps and herp law. So please, take our word for it. If you choose not to listen to our kind words of wisdom, eventually you will get caught, and you will get in trouble.
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by ratsnakehaven »

I buy a resident hunting and fishing combo license every year. AZ is the state I live in and I handle reptiles and amphibians, sometimes bringing one home for one reason or another, not the same as for Craig or many other out-of-staters. I normally spend time in lots of other states every year, especially Michigan where I used to live. I spent two weeks in MI last summer and photographed dozens of herps for the database and my personal pleasure. I didn't buy a license there. But part of it is knowing what the laws are in other states and how the LE handles people who are "pursuing," or otherwise interested in the herps of that state. In AZ the laws are stricter than in most states. LE here take the laws a lot more seriously than in other states. Usually a hunting license is sufficient, but if you're in an area with one or more "protected" amphibians, a fishing license might come into play, depending on the officer, what you're doing, etc. If you're road cruising with someone in AZ who has hooks, bags, etc, in their car, don't get out of the car to look or photograph w/o a license. If I take someone out w/o a license, I clean my car out first and become a non-herper. Once I was stopped while outside the car looking at a tarantula. The officer asked me if I was also looking at reptiles. I just pulled out my license to show him, so I could get on my way. I wish there was a blanket license we could buy that covered the entire country, so we wouldn't have to worry about which state we were in and what their laws were, etc. LE watch forums like this one, so AZG&F probably will know about NAFHA's outing in August and some kind of license would be a good move, imho, if you're going to visit AZ as well as NM.

TC :crazyeyes:
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Chris Smith
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by Chris Smith »

craigb wrote:I have gotten out at night and walked up to toads and frogs to photograph them. This is not in violation of the law because I am not taking them.
"1. A fishing or combination license is required for take of amphibians. Amphibians may be taken day or night per R12-4-313(E)." AZ is specific about "aquatic wildlife". While I am out there when it is raining, I am far away from permenent water sources.

It is important to spend the time and know the laws.

I do however buy the annual out of state hunting license, because I make several trips there each year. It was $157 last year. Not a bad deal considering I made 7 trips last year. I didn't collect/take a single animal.
craig
Look up the AZ G&F definition of "take".

-Chris
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by Biker Dave »

Chris - its not the "take" that they will get you on... its the "pursue/pursuit."

I've got feelers out in AZGF about a group scientific permit. Lets not muck this up. Please.
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by chris_mcmartin »

craigb wrote:Yep ... I guess I need to just drive right past the frogs and toads.
But without breaking any law I could just run them over.

You are correct. I just think the law shows ignorance of folks that may even stop to shoo a frog or toad off the road. They could be cited.
Sounds like I'm going to have to refine a couple of questions in this year's Herper Survey (link is to the current one which closes Feb 28, in case you haven't yet taken it). I think my questions lump all herps together without breaking out different license types for different herp types. I'll add to my "to do list" for the next one.

Crazy that moving an animal off the road can get a person written up, but watching them get run over by someone (either inadvertently or maliciously; I've witnessed both while trying to photograph--but not touch!--turtles in TX, which has similar restrictions) is OK. :?
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by chris_mcmartin »

craigb wrote:He was polite and even said before he left that he had done the same thing on duty many times.
That's probably the part I have the most heartburn about--two things come to mind with my experiences in "another state:"

1. I've been told that even though technically it's against the law, "no one is going to cite you for moving a turtle off the road." That's a fine thing to say, but you either apply the law equally or you don't...

2. I've been with wildlife department officials--basically giving them a ride-along, showing them how to herp--and THEY have been the ones to move the animals off the road. I told them, "you can't touch this snake," but they say, "but a truck is coming down the road!" I actually think it's a good thing, showing the department itself the folly in a "no touchee" law, but all they can really do is commiserate and hope that we can slowly ratchet back the laws to the way they were 7 years ago. :?


To get back to the topic of the NAFHA meeting: blanket permit for the weekend should be pursued, allowing capture, handling, moving off road, etc. Get it for both NM and AZ--in fact, whichever one approves it first can be used as the template for the other. Have Pingleton show them the 2012 permit, and the resultant data collection we achieved. That should convince them the benefits (more data) far outweigh the risks.
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by ratsnakehaven »

craigb wrote:I do stretch the limits though. Two years ago I moved a adult C. mitchelli off the road in a Ca. state park with a hook and had a ranger drive up to me. I was almost to the opposite shoulder at the time. He could see I wasn't poaching, just showing concern for an animal. I explained that I was not collecting, just photographing. He still took my drivers license, and I showed him my valid fishing license. He was looking in my car and asked if he could search it. I cooperated with him. I allowed him to search my car for cages and bags. All he found were cameras and energy drinks. I was not cited, but was told to leave my snake hook in the trunk in a state park. He was polite and even said before he left that he had done the same thing on duty many times.

Yep, you don't want to be out and about with a snake hook in a State Park. You only need a fishing license in CA?

You were lucky he was an understanding officer. Last summer I was on the road bt. AZ and NM which is close to the Chiricahuas. I came across a desert box turtle in the middle of the road and had three cars behind me. I had to make some quick decisions: should I stop; should I move the turtle? I stopped in the middle of the road to stop traffic and decided to move the turtle, an adult female, to the shoulder. I moved it to the AZ side, since I didn't have a NM license. Then I crossed my fingers that I wouldn't get cited for moving a protected species. Most officers are understanding, but not all. Technically I could have gotten a ticket for stopping in the middle of the road also. That's against the law in AZ. It's a learning process, isn't it?

I remember a case in Southern MI where a guy moved a protected turtle to the side of the road and got cited by a passing DNR officer. He got in some other trouble too, such as getting a fine and losing some herping rights, etc. Bad day for herpers and the DNR, imo.

I agree that a "blanket" license for the group (NAFHA) would be a great idea. I hope that works out.
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by azatrox »

Regarding moving "protected" species off the roadway, I'll do it every day and twice on Sundays. Wanna cite me? Go ahead....These animals are "protected" because (supposedly) the state has recognized that they are in danger of exploitation and as such has a desire to see that they persist in the wild...Such persistence is lessened if they are allowed to become road burger BECAUSE they're "protected"....In such a case, their "protection" led to their demise.

There's the letter of the law, and then there's the spirit of the law as written. Moving an animal off a roadway (whether protected or not) may technically violate the former, but is in full compliance with the latter. Personally, I'm willing to take the risk that an officer would cite me in such an instance...I believe I'd have a viable claim in court and would pursue such if I ever were cited.

Now, if I jump out of the car with a bucket/bag/hook, etc. then my claim that I'm simply removing the animal from a dangerous situation for its own good is severely lessened. As such, I wouldn't recommend doing this....But if I jump out and shoo an animal off with nothing but camera in hand, then an officer would have a difficult time trying to prove that my intent was to collect said animal (particularly if there were bags/buckets/etc. within easy reach within the vehicle).

Each person has to make this decision for themselves, as it does expose one to a certain amount of risk if they choose one course of action over another. That said, for me I cannot in good conscience allow an animal to get creamed because I was worried that touching it might result in a ticket...Seems counter-intuitive to why the law exists in my book.

-Kris
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by Biker Dave »

Just remember to put the car in Park, with the brake on!
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by dwarfboakeeper »

I'm planning on being in Arizona during this time. I do hope to be able to tag along for at least one day.
This will be my first NAFHA meeting.
Is there an official sign up sheet?
Are there any fees for attending?
Thanks in advance.
Pat
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Pat, will be my first one too. I doubt if there are any attendance fees... ;)
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by ratsnakehaven »

azatrox wrote:Regarding moving "protected" species off the roadway, I'll do it every day and twice on Sundays. Wanna cite me? Go ahead....These animals are "protected" because (supposedly) the state has recognized that they are in danger of exploitation and as such has a desire to see that they persist in the wild...Such persistence is lessened if they are allowed to become road burger BECAUSE they're "protected"....In such a case, their "protection" led to their demise.

There's the letter of the law, and then there's the spirit of the law as written. Moving an animal off a roadway (whether protected or not) may technically violate the former, but is in full compliance with the latter. Personally, I'm willing to take the risk that an officer would cite me in such an instance...I believe I'd have a viable claim in court and would pursue such if I ever were cited.

Now, if I jump out of the car with a bucket/bag/hook, etc. then my claim that I'm simply removing the animal from a dangerous situation for its own good is severely lessened. As such, I wouldn't recommend doing this....But if I jump out and shoo an animal off with nothing but camera in hand, then an officer would have a difficult time trying to prove that my intent was to collect said animal (particularly if there were bags/buckets/etc. within easy reach within the vehicle).

Each person has to make this decision for themselves, as it does expose one to a certain amount of risk if they choose one course of action over another. That said, for me I cannot in good conscience allow an animal to get creamed because I was worried that touching it might result in a ticket...Seems counter-intuitive to why the law exists in my book.

-Kris

Great response, Kris. My feelings also. The intent is to protect the species and you have the right intent. I am willing to risk it too. However, I do have a funny story about the correct intent.

It was a very warm spring evening and I had been cruising a blacktop road in the desert near the Santa Cruz Valley, when I came upon a large Gila monster crossing the road in front of me. Excitedly, I slammed on the brakes, threw it into park, and jumped out to chase the animal off the road. I then followed it into a little brush on the shoulder and was about to get a photo when I saw a car speeding towards my vehicle. I ran over to my car as fast as I could and barely got it onto the shoulder before a Sheriff's vehicle pulled up behind me. I had to endure ten minutes of lecture from a young "whipper snapper" on the law about not parking in the road. I told him about the Gila episode, but he didn't care what was in the road. I did get away w/o a ticket, but got a good lesson in how the local LE feels about local herpers. BTW, officers rarely stop or move for herps, and I've seen plenty of DOR's where they are working and even seen a few get run over right in front of me.

TC :shock:
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by azatrox »

It was a very warm spring evening and I had been cruising a blacktop road in the desert near the Santa Cruz Valley, when I came upon a large Gila monster crossing the road in front of me. Excitedly, I slammed on the brakes, threw it into park, and jumped out to chase the animal off the road. I then followed it into a little brush on the shoulder and was about to get a photo when I saw a car speeding towards my vehicle. I ran over to my car as fast as I could and barely got it onto the shoulder before a Sheriff's vehicle pulled up behind me. I had to endure ten minutes of lecture from a young "whipper snapper" on the law about not parking in the road. I told him about the Gila episode, but he didn't care what was in the road. I did get away w/o a ticket, but got a good lesson in how the local LE feels about local herpers. BTW, officers rarely stop or move for herps, and I've seen plenty of DOR's where they are working and even seen a few get run over right in front of me.

Good job on getting the Gila out of harm's way...I've found that most LE other than AzG&F and US Forest Service don't care about wildlife, protected or not. For what it's worth, if you were on the right of way (and not the road proper), that's most likely why you didn't receive a ticket. I've run into a few LE officers that were actually interested in herps, but for the most part they don't care (or worse intentionally run them over). Like you I've seen officers swerve to hit snakes, lizards, turtles, etc. Thoroughly disheartening.

- Kris
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Re: NAFHA National Meeting, 2014

Post by Fundad »

Is there an official sign up sheet?

Yes, a liability waiver will need to be signed.

Fundad
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