Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

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Bryan Hamilton
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Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

This article was written by David Steens. He's a herpetologist with a strong twitter following and an interesting blog.

I thought the the article was pretty well written and balanced. What do you think?

"Some of the world’s biggest and deadliest reptiles have been found in the United States where they don’t belong, including Nile crocodiles, Burmese pythons, and green anacondas. In fact, all of them have been found in Florida alone. The swampy wilderness of south Florida is hot, muggy, and a great spot for reptiles from all over the world to settle in and get comfortable. You might think that it would be difficult for a beast from the jungles of Africa, Asia, or South America to find its way to Florida, but it’s not. In fact, a few hundred of them may have been in the cargo hold of the last airplane you flew on, either smuggled, shipped here legally for the exotic pet trade, or as stowaways. "

http://www.slate.com/blogs/wild_things/ ... tegus.html
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chrish
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by chrish »

No big boids are scary. People in different areas of the globe have lived around large boids was for millennia. They don't represent a real threat other than the fear they might instil in the uninformed.

Large crocodilians like C. niloticus or C. porosus might represent a significant threat if they were to become established. It would certainly change our recreational watersport and fishing habits. They could also impact populations of competitors like American crocs and alligators.
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by stlouisdude »

Terrible article

"Some of the world’s biggest and deadliest reptiles"... deadly to who? I think the likelihood of someone expiring from a python in Florida is not too great. They'd be far more likely to die in an auto accident, yet we aren't calling for a ban on cars. Risk relative to any of the thousands of greater dangers people encounter on a daily basis is miniscule. They'd be better off investing in smoke detectors and cars with higher safety ratings than worrying about reptiles.

"These invasive pythons are eating everything they can, like raccoons, opossums and bobcats," I don't know about anyone else on this forum, but I am not concerned with the population of raccoons or opossums and bobcats even live in heavily populated suburban areas, so I'm not sure what's supposed to be implied here as a problem.

"but there’s no reason to think they were anything other than just a few escaped pets." I was thinking there's no reason to think they are escaped pets. They could have came from anywhere, including animal rights activists who needed to generate PR for their cause.

I believe 200 years from now all this sensationalism about invasive species will be laughed about. There is nowhere in the world free of the impacts of man. The idea that we can ever have anything "wild and untouched" is something only the naive can continue to imagine. I for one enjoy the sightings of free ranging animals, invasive and native. With the world's population growing as it is nothing will stop the masses from extracting resources from even the last forests and lakes much longer. Hey at least all the tokay geckos and such give urban kids a chance to interact with reptiles cooler than an anole in their backyards.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Kelly Mc »

Although I know accidents can happen, they can happen with any strong animal. I almost got squished in the gut by a Sub A hippo once who was barely trying.

There have also been reptile incidents I have had, so I know stuff can happen. And its true that it is not as easy for the general public to get hippos or cassowaries at an annual pet trade show. I have been privy to some pretty idiotic things, like the guy that said his retic "loves his son" who was stroller sized not sure how old that is. A year, year and a half.

It is the same as working, being close to heavy machinery in a way, only that is responsive on its own operative.

But the thing that is irritating is the "Deadly" "combative type hyperbole in costuming the demeanor and motives of reptiles.

I get irritated the same way watching dinosaur documentaries. Can there be One Dinosaur Documentary that isnt completely engrossed in recreating Battles between species? Like thats the only thing they ever did? Im curious about all the other behaviors they must have had.
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Owen
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Owen »

Personally, I think little stuff does more damage:



We already have Fire and Argentine Ants, we definitely don't need Driver, Bulldog and Bullet Ants.
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Andy Avram
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Andy Avram »

stlouisdude wrote:Terrible article
"Some of the world’s biggest and deadliest reptiles"... deadly to who? I think the likelihood of someone expiring from a python in Florida is not too great.
Deadliest is a comparison. A python that kills one person is deadlier than an Anole that killed no people. And anyway you cut it Nile Crocodiles (which are mentioned in the article and I have seen one in Florida) are deadly and routinely kill numerous people in their native Africa.

stlouisdude wrote: "These invasive pythons are eating everything they can, like raccoons, opossums and bobcats," I don't know about anyone else on this forum, but I am not concerned with the population of raccoons or opossums and bobcats even live in heavily populated suburban areas, so I'm not sure what's supposed to be implied here as a problem.
Admittedly, these species mentioned are not imperiled (not to say they couldn't come imperiled one day in the future), but we can also read this as with a readily available supply of food the populations of these exotic species can actually read the level of becoming invasive and then they are exposed to other native species that are imperiled, such as the Woodrat and Wood Stork mentioned in the article.

Lastly, I, and hopefully many others do not believe your thoughts on what we will come to think of invasive species in the future.

Andy
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justinm
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by justinm »

Bull Sharks in freshwater rivers as far North as I live are the scariest invasive I can think of. I used to run seine nets up to my neck with my brothers as kids. The water in most of the rivers near me are to murky to see anything, so yeah Bull Sharks scare me now.
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Sam Bacchini
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Sam Bacchini »

justinm wrote:Bull Sharks in freshwater rivers as far North as I live are the scariest invasive I can think of. I used to run seine nets up to my neck with my brothers as kids. The water in most of the rivers near me are to murky to see anything, so yeah Bull Sharks scare me now.
I wouldn't call bull sharks invasive. They move into fresh water in many places around the world through natural means, not as a result of human activities. I understand Lake Nicaragua has a landlocked population of freshwater bull sharks. That being said, I agree it would be a startling encounter, if only because it was so unexpected.
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Antonsrkn
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Antonsrkn »

I thought it was a good article. On the other hand not the biggest fan of the title, too easy to misinterpret for folks who only read a bit of the article or just glance at the title.
I believe 200 years from now all this sensationalism about invasive species will be laughed about. There is nowhere in the world free of the impacts of man. The idea that we can ever have anything "wild and untouched" is something only the naive can continue to imagine. I for one enjoy the sightings of free ranging animals, invasive and native. With the world's population growing as it is nothing will stop the masses from extracting resources from even the last forests and lakes much longer. Hey at least all the tokay geckos and such give urban kids a chance to interact with reptiles cooler than an anole in their backyards.
Call me naive then, I will never agree with this sentiment. The idea that there will be no "wild and untouched" places left is a depressing one, and yes it could happen but to say that it will happen and there is nothing wrong with this is an apathetic and dismissive attitude that plays a huge role in allowing it to happen in the first place. The way I see it that attitude is a huge part of the problem worse than any pythons or tegus.

I agree deadliest may have been a bad choice of words but the article doesn't focus on any potential or imagined danger to humans really just danger to the ecosystem.

And anyway you cut it Nile Crocodiles (which are mentioned in the article and I have seen one in Florida) are deadly and routinely kill numerous people in their native Africa.
Thats crazy, was the individual you saw one of the ones mentioned in the article? How big? where? any pics?
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Andy Avram
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Andy Avram »

justinm wrote:Bull Sharks in freshwater rivers as far North as I live are the scariest invasive I can think of.
gila-91 wrote:I wouldn't call bull sharks invasive. They move into fresh water in many places around the world through natural means, not as a result of human activities. I understand Lake Nicaragua has a landlocked population of freshwater bull sharks. That being said, I agree it would be a startling encounter, if only because it was so unexpected.
Yeah, Bull Sharks in freshwater rivers is just part of their natural movements, some rivers are more prone to them then others, but it does not make them invasive. Also, from what I understand on the Lake Nicaragua Bulls is that they migrate up and down the rivers to the ocean (Atlantic side nonetheless!) to breed. This was only found out a few years back, before then they thought they bred in the lake.

Anton, about the Nile Croc I saw in Florida. It was during on a lame air boat ride in the Everglades. Unknown to me before the trip (which was a gift from someone else) we were in canals in a fenced in pen with buffalo, zebra and the like. I think, but may be mistaken that the canals were open, which let the Alligators move in and out of the "preserve". Regardless, the boat stopped by a particularly strange gator, that I thought looked more like a croc. The boat driver told us to look at it and then said it was a Nile Crocodile that escaped its pen (they had a number of crocodilian species in pits) about 10 years ago and lived among the gators. It was a few years ago at this point, and I didn't get pictures of it, but it was probably around 8' or so. Took me by surprise that they wouldn't recapture it or kill it. Once it went in the water the boat took off because of the "potential danger" from it. From what I gather though, it was free to enter the wilds of the Everglades, but it set up territory in the deeper canals of the air boat trail.

Andy
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azatrox
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by azatrox »

Bull Sharks in freshwater rivers as far North as I live are the scariest invasive I can think of.

Justin, bull sharks (even as far north as you are) are not invasive. They've been going up the Mississippi as far north as Minnesota for millenia. Granted, the thought of a bull shark cruising around in muddy water with you in it is not a heartwarming idea, but the shark belongs there.

As far as scary invasives, people and exotic viruses scare the hell out of me.

-Kris
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by WSTREPS »

The organization Defenders of Wildlife estimated that on your average day between 2000 and 2004, “the United States imported … 588,000 individually counted animals plus an additional 3 tons of animals that were weighed, not counted individually.

However, the global trade in animals is so huge and complex that we shouldn’t be surprised when creatures slip through the cracks and disappear into the nearby woods.
And how much of this involves reptiles? You will not get a factual answer to that question from this source. To begin with, the US is home to thousands of invasive species that have been introduced via a wide range of vectors. Reptiles comprise only a small fraction of these.

In this blog, biologist David Steens singles out a particular segment and then begins his blog by using vague and very general statistical information provided by an extremist animal rights group. Combined with manipulative comments that have nothing to do with the invasive nature of a species to set the tone of his propaganda piece. Not unbiased, not balanced, not objective. It's calculated and dishonest.
These invasive pythons are eating everything they can, like raccoons, opossums and bobcats, and they are probably leading to severe population declines in these mammals. Pythons are even known to have consumed federally protected species such as the Key Largo woodrat and the wood stork.

I recently sat thru a Florida fish and wildlife commission meeting. The bulk of the meeting involved Everglades restoration. Speaker after expert speaker gave their testimonies all hoping to leverage funding for restoration projects. A large percentage of the conversation was centered around the perceived decline in the Everglades wildlife, mammals in particular. Not a single speaker said one word about pythons.

They all agreed mismanagement of the Everglades hydrology was the cause of the perceived shift in the Everglades mammal populations. Had any of these people thought the pythons were a significant cause in the decline of the Everglades mammals they would have certainly brought that point up.

It was made clear by all that water issues not snakes is responsible for Everglades perceived mammal decline. This included python hysteria bandwagon jumper commissioner Ron Bergerman. It is calculated and misleading to say the Everglades mammals are disappearing, even more so to blame it on the snakes. The truth is, due to the improper management of the Everglades water table. Water levels have created an environment that in some areas of the Everglades is no longer viable for certain animals. None of these animals are in decline as a species. Many, including the mythical Florida panther have increased in numbers .

As a side note the wide ranging , common and federally protected wood stork (all wading birds are federally protected) has experienced a considerable population increase. In any case, certainly this species does not or ever will make up a significant enough portion of the Burmese pythons diet to consider the snake a threat to the storks survival. Using this bird as an example (scare tactic) to illustrate the environmental threat these snakes pose is bad form.
Florida officials even organized a Python Challenge that attracted 1,600 aspiring python hunters, but only 68 snakes were captured after an entire month of searching. For many folks, the low number of pythons captured suggested that perhaps the python hysteria was mostly hype. But for us biologists, the real surprise was how many pythons were captured, not how few.

Even when we are looking for snakes and know they are there, we have about a 1 percent chance of seeing them.
So not finding snakes proves that the pythons are there in mass? Had the "us biologist" crowd been looking to protect the pythons instead of causing python hysteria. They would be using the POOR results of the python challenge as validation that the species was in severe decline and in need of protection. The endangered species list, population studies and words from the biologist themselves is proof of the contradiction in this. The spin doctor is in.

The python challenge will not be repeated. The "folks" who suggested that perhaps the python hysteria was mostly hype are correct. Every where within the Burmese pythons native range the snakes are protected because they have been over collected.
Nile monitor: Picture a Komodo dragon and you’ve got a pretty good idea what you’re dealing with in a Nile monitor. This hulking beast of a lizard can reach nearly 8 feet long and is a voracious predator of any creature smaller than itself. Nile monitors have been documented from seven different counties in Florida, and a few established populations are known: in West Palm Beach, Cape Coral, and probably also on Homestead Air Reserve Base. Biologists fear the lizards are preying on native burrowing owls, among other animals.
Picture a Komodo dragon. For many people that conjures up the terrifying image of a gigantic saliva drooling monster. Tearing off deer legs and chasing Steve Irwin up a tree. To compare a Komodo dragon to a Nile monitor is absurd. Had this fear mongering statement come from a news article no doubt as in the past many would try to defend this biologist by saying he was misquoted. Blaming the media for sensationalizing things etc.

Among keepers Nile monitors have a bad reputation for being aggressive like the African rock python. People wrongly assume that captive behavior is indicative of wild behavior.

The truth is the Nile monitor in the wild with few exceptions is a shy, easily spooked animal that runs at the first sign of trouble. The last thing these animals want is a confrontation. The monitor can grow large, but typically are 3 to 4 1/2 feet more or less. It's also true that Nile monitors have a broad diet and are opportunistic like many predatory creatures. But its hardly a Komodo dragon.


Wild Niles prefer to eat small, easy to catch prey. Snails, frogs, anoles, crabs, insects, etc. They scavenge as well. That is the BULK of their diet. Highlighting potentially consumed or infrequently eaten prey items to create drama and fear is unethical. Reports of Niles eating adult cats and small dogs are preposterous.

Burrowing owls and Nile monitors. Nowhere do these two species coexist in larger numbers or have over a longer length of time then in Cape Coral. The Niles have been documented there since 1990. Many believe they were there much longer.

The Cape has the largest burrowing owl population in Florida. The Cape also has the largest Nile monitor population. Today there are more burrowing owls on the cape, then ever before. Within the city they number in the thousands. Consequently the number of Nile monitors trapped has decreased. I have seen reports that number is down by up to around 50%. I haven't gone monitor hunting on the cape in a while, but in my opinion I don't think the lizards are disappearing .

What is certain is the burrowing owls are thriving in the presents of these lizards.
A big reason being the burrowing owl unlike some other animals benefits from the destruction of natural habitat . In Florida more and more natural habitat that was unusable for the little owls is now being turned into a custom made owl habitat. The future of the burrowing owl is secure.

Verdict: David Steens comes off as yet another activist fraud posing as a credible scientist. Shame on you Dave.

Ernie Eison
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azatrox
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by azatrox »

Picture a Komodo dragon. For many people that conjures up the terrifying image of a gigantic saliva drooling monster. Tearing off deer legs and chasing Steve Irwin up a tree.

Or munching on Wes Welker's legs as he lounges on a beach in an Old Spice commercial.

- Kris
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Tim Borski
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Tim Borski »

In south FL, fire ants and Africanized bees cause (me) far more concern of day-to-day health than all the others mentioned.

Tim
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by pete »

Garlic mustard, mile a minute vine, Asian bittersweet and kudzu are some of the exotics that keep me awake. I didn't enjoy my encounter with Africanized bees in Arizona all that much and mute swans really do a number on some of the wetlands here. The list goes on forever and to pick on herps is just silly.
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by daniel »

Invasive plants are far more damaging than invasive wildlife species, IMO.
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by hellihooks »

Worldwide the most wide ranging invasive of ALL is... wait for it...tumbleweeds. Bullfrogs and Crayfish suck (i like turtles) but at least taste pretty good... :D jim
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Kelly Mc »

We cherish indigenous fauna and flora and deservedly so but it sounds like if we take the judgment out we might have to concede that neo ecologies are forming. Without surmising they be self limiting or disastrous but just to understand. Is there a branch of science developing to this regard too?
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Sam Bacchini
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Sam Bacchini »

daniel wrote:Invasive plants are far more damaging than invasive wildlife species, IMO.
I agree invasive plants cause WAY more environmental damage than wildlife. Possible exceptions include zebra mussles and the like.
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by nightdriver »

I remember hearing of a neonate king cobra being found in everglades. Whether or not it is true I couldn't say. Certainly the potential exists for some really scary stuff to become established or get loose should a hurricane take out the wrong herp breeder. I always tell the firemen I work with to believe somebody, or at least not discount them, if you go out on a snake call and they tell you they have a loose bushmaster or saw a cobra in their yard. Some things are just to easy to get. Walking down a trail and coming eye-to-eye with an adult King cobra would be REALLY SCARY :shock:


I once was out herping a local area and saw a non-crotalus snake moving slowly through some tall grass. My normal course of action would have been to pounce on it, but I realized quickly I had no idea what it was. It was big, and most likely a melanistic coachwhip, but I had never and still have never seen a coachwhip in that area in the 30 plus years of herping there. I still wonder what it could have been and whether or not I made the right choice. I could have come up with somebodies escaped Indigo 8-)

-nightdriver
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Mark Brown
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Mark Brown »

Back in the late '60s and through the '70s there were lots of rumors of a population of cobras (can't recall which type) being established north of the 'glades. Only a rumor, but it was certainly a very wide-ranging one. I heard about it from a lot of different sources at the time.
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

David Steen's response

Why Writing About Exotic Species Got Me Called an Activist Fraud

" A few weeks ago I wrote an article that appeared in Slate Magazine about how biologists try to tell the difference between species that are exotic and those that are invasive, using some of the exotic reptiles that have been found in South Florida as examples. I basically summarized the scientific consensus on exotic reptiles in Florida so that people could have a better understanding of the issue. It was a piece I used to expand on a blog post I wrote detailing problems with an earlier story in Slate suggesting Green Anacondas had invaded Florida. I wrote what I did because I thought the fear-mongering article about Green Anacondas was based on inaccurate and misleading information. A well-informed general public that appreciates wildlife is more likely to be interested in their conservation; it’s why I participate in science outreach and why I created this blog.

Overall, I've been very pleased with the response to my article and received some great feedback. But, to my surprise, I have also provoked some outrage and personal attacks….."

http://www.livingalongsidewildlife.com/ ... ot-me.html
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Joseph Jenkins
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Joseph Jenkins »

David Steen is a good guy!

All the accusations about him having some political agenda are completely bogus. He only has the best intentions to educate the public about conservation issues. It's too bad that there are exotic reptiles firmly established in FL, but what makes it ok for everyone to discredit and ignore that fact?

I recommend everyone here subscribe to his blog. It is the best wildlife and conservation blog on the web!
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Bali Reptile Rescue »

Which exotic species are potentially scary?

We were called to house in Bali Indonesia to remove a snake
Western timber rattler released by some clown expat collector when they left Bali
Also released 17 other exotics which led to cali kings breeding in Bali
Think about it for a moment
cali king and banded krait at 2am in the rain?
Which one is it?
We removed most of the others that we could find

4 Black mambas escaped in Surabaya
Luckily all 4 were hunted down and destroyed

2 gaboon vipers captured near Jakarta
1 saw scaled viper in Yogjakarta

When there is virtually unrestricted movement/guying/selling of any animal it leads to problems
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WSTREPS
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by WSTREPS »

As a side note the wide ranging , common and federally protected wood stork (all wading birds are federally protected) has experienced a considerable population increase. In any case, certainly this species does not or ever will make up a significant enough portion of the Burmese pythons diet to consider the snake a threat to the storks survival. Using this bird as an example (scare tactic) to illustrate the environmental threat these snakes pose is bad form.

Ernie Eison
Why is it bad form? The simple facts do not support the hype. When thinking of a wood stork picture a pterodactyl. LOL. The members ( the USGS team and friends) of the GCRAP or Giant Constrictor Risk Assessment Partnership. Would have us believe that these snakes are gobbling up the storks into extinction. The stork population tells a different story. A story that is the truth.

The wood stork, a bird prevalent in Central and South Florida (but far more wide ranging) with an exapnding breeding range , was listed as "endangered" in 1984. But in 2008, the Fish and Wildlife Service determined that the listing was no longer warranted, and the bird could be downlisted to "threatened." The federal government's own scientific findings concluded that the "endangered" classification for the wood stork is no longer warranted. However, although years have passed, the agency did not act on that finding. Until 2012 when the proposed downlisting was made.

It is important for the government not to engage in over-regulation, or impose regulatory rules that aren't justified by Environmental agencies owe it to the environment and the taxpayers to make efficient use of their resources. Officials should focus on protecting species that actually need help because they are truly endangered. Furthermore, the wood storks 'endangered' listing is about integrity in the public sector. Government undermines its credibility by calling a species 'endangered' when it isn't."

The ESA requires the government to review the status of all species listed as endangered or threatened at least every five years. However, this requirement has been widely flouted over time.
The Nile Monitor (Varanus niloticus), the longest lizard in Africa, was first observed in southwestern peninsular Florida in the Cape Coral area of Lee County ca. 1990. From April 2001 through 7 July 2003, we compiled 146 sightings or captures of this species by local residents or ourselves.
During this time period Biologist Todd Campbell got $50,000 in grants from state and federal wildlife foundations to come to Cape Coral for two years in parts of '03, '04 and '05,

Rick Engeman, a biologist at the National Wildlife Research Center in Colorado, said it could cost $70,000 per trapper, per year, for salary and equipment. And it would require multiple trappers for multiple years.

It's no wonder Todd Campbell and others include unsubstantiated public sightings and information and what ever other straw they can grasp at to bolster their campaign.

According to biologist Harry Phillips Cape Coral averaged about 50 Nile monitor catch's a year in the past. Phillips said trapping numbers are now down to about half of what they had been.
The monitor can grow large, but typically are 3 to 4 1/2 feet more or less. Ernie Eison

our records, a reptile dealer claims to have collected for resale
approximately 40 V. niloticus 60–122 cm TL and 10 specimens > 122
cm TL since the early 1990s, but mostly within the past three years
(pers. comm., C. Clark, Punta Gorda, FL). K.M. Enge, K.L. Krysko, K.R. Hankins, T.S. Campbell, and F.W. King
C. Clark being Chris Clark someone I have known for 30 years. I Believe his testimony to be credible.

Conny Spurfeld has caught the biggest Nile monitor in Cape Coral's history at 6 feet 0.004 inch's. The average size I gave is based on information provided by the trappers and personal observation. Its a good representation of the lizard's general size . The fact that the 6ft specimen was considered a monster compared to what they had and are catching is proof.

When giving size estimates I feel its VERY misleading to make open ended statement's such as this hulking beast of a lizard can reach nearly 8 feet long. I don't think its incorrect to mention maximum size during discussion. I do feel it's very important to place that size into its proper perspective. Include information about the average size. Presenting a size that is so statistically unusual it can only be considered an anomaly, as the norm. Is not very educational. It's wrong.

Varanus niloticus), in the Cape Coral area of Lee County. Varanus
niloticus was first observed ca. 1990 in the Four Mile Cove Ecological
Park area, a 148-ha saltwater wetland preserve on the eastern side of
Cape Coral, adjacent to the Caloosahatchee River.
Yes, the Monitors could usurp owl and tortoise burrows and prey upon eggs . But after decades of interaction between Florida's largest Nile monitor population and its largest burrowing owl population. The supporting evidence between the hypothetical could and the factual truth / concrete evidence is very thin.

Look at the dates and consider that the Nile monitor introduction date by most credible accounts was in 1990. Today its 2014, Lee County's burrowing owl population is still the highest in Florida showing no signs of decline, but increases as one estimate has the city's population listed as 1200 or more adult pairs / thousands in the City of Cape Coral alone. Not including chicks.

Despite compelling and irrefutable evidence. Proof that the owls have thrived after the monitor's introduction . You can't read anything about the Nile monitors presents in Florida without seeing something about the major threat these animals pose to the burrowing owl e.g., see woodstork.

Ernie Eison
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Bali Reptile Rescue »

Ernie
Could the monitors be responsible for the increase in owls because they may be eating what was the owls predators??

Monitors are ferocious predators but tend to specialise depending on their location
Maybe they find whatever was eating the owls quite delicious and dont bother with owls unless they are injured etc?

Varanus salvator in Bali are very common in chicken farms
Great rat catchers who usually dont eat chickens
But if the chicken is injured its a different story
luv_the_smellof_musk
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by luv_the_smellof_musk »

Revised article

Exotic species not so scary


Some of the world’s medium sized, interesting reptiles have been found in the United States where they had previously been separated from, including Nile monitors and Burmese pythons. Despite rumors of larger snakes, like Green Anacondas, these have only been seen in isolated cases and do not reproduce outside of captivity anywhere in the United States. The origin of those animals remains unknown, possibly having been introduced by animal rights activists to further their agenda.

The reptiles could come on shipments of goods that arrive from all over the world. Without stopping the importation of all goods from countries located outside of the artic, there is no way to prevent the establishment of exotic reptiles in Florida. The United States imports over two trillion dollars worth of goods per year, making inspection of every item an impossible task.

Not everyone agrees that Burmese pythons are a major problem. These invasive pythons are eating nuisance species, like raccoons, opossums, and there is no proof that they are leading to severe population declines in these common and widespread mammals. Pythons are even thought by some to contribute to turtle populations by reducing the numbers of predators back to historic levels.

Picture a Komodo dragon only far smaller in size and presents no danger to humans and you have a Nile monitor. Years of observations shows the lizards are not preying on native burrowing owls in any meaningful way. Studies should be conducted to see if Nile monitors are helping protect the owls from predators.

The worst invasive species remain feral cats and hogs. We should consider adding these dangerous predators to the lacey act.
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WSTREPS
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by WSTREPS »

Although it might seem that this species should have spread more widely since
being introduced prior to 1990, even the most prolific invasive species tend to “simmer”
for many years before entering their exponential phase of expansion (Shigesada and
Kawasaki 1997).
It's now 2014 and the Nile monitor is not even simmering it's cooling off, according to trapping reports. At the very least its presents has proven to be of no consequence on any level. As with the Burmese python there is NO EVIDINCE that these animals are "taking over". By all standards the established populations are normal in density, the animals being caught are not overfed creatures that have unnaturally gorged themselves .They are normally functioning populations playing the same environmental role in a similar but non-native habitat.


Nile monitors were extremely elusive in Cape Coral, and generally only a few were seen
during an entire day of surveys and trapping. Lizards were generally heard or less often
observed fleeing into dense vegetation along canal banks or into the water. Lizards were
occasionally and briefly observed basking and sleeping in trees, basking on seawalls,
basking in yards, walking along canal banks, swimming in canals, entering burrows, or
digging up animal nests. However, visual observations of lizards lasting more than one
minute were extremely rare, and only a few still photographs and videos of live lizards were obtained during this study. Todd S. Campbell, Ph.D.,

The truth is the Nile monitor in the wild with few exceptions is a shy, easily spooked animal that runs at the first sign of trouble. Ernie Eison
This is not a dangerous animal in any way.
Running away, diving into the water, fleeing from any threat is what they do. Even when cornered they do nothing but attempt to protect themselves by trying to create space. They never attack or show themselves to be the aggressor.
The stomach contents of 80 dissected individuals indicate Nile monitors have an
extremely broad diet in Cape Coral . Fourteen of the 80 stomachs were
completely empty. Sixteen stomachs contained cockroaches, 15 contained spiders, 13
contained Cuban brown anoles (or their eggs), 12 contained beetles and their larvae, and
nine contained crickets, grasshoppers, and other orthopterans. The mean number of prey
items in the 66 stomachs containing at least one prey item was 4.14 (range 1-23 prey
items). Nearly 50 of these items were cockroaches, 47 were beetles, 25 were spiders, 24
were frogs, and 17 of them were Cuban brown anoles or their eggs.

Stomachs of these lizards contained marine, freshwater, and terrestrial insects,
mollusks, crustaceans, arachnids, fish, amphibians, reptiles, reptile eggs, birds, bird eggs,
and mammals. However, they appear to prefer ground-dwelling spiders and insects
(mainly cockroaches) and various amphibians and reptiles. Todd S. Campbell, Ph.D.,

Wild Niles prefer to eat small, easy to catch prey. Snails, frogs, anoles, crabs, insects, etc. They scavenge as well. That is the BULK of their diet. Highlighting potentially consumed or infrequently eaten prey items to create drama and fear is unethical. Reports of Niles eating adult cats and small dogs are preposterous. Ernie Eison

As stated, they have a broad range of diet and will eat anything, but that's not to say they eat everything. These lizards primarily look for small easy to catch quick meals or scavage. The presents of some species in the stomach contents are as likely the result of scavenging as it is hunting. For example dead fish and mammals are readily consumed and easy to find.

In essence. They are niche predators and there is a lot of competition for them in Florida. Foxes, feral cats and dogs, raccoons, skunks, opossums, vultures, birds of prey. They all not only compete for food with the monitor, but also prey on the monitors. The lizards are part of a very competitive world. The reason the monitors have a high reproduction rate is because they have a low survival rate.

Burmese python

Population: This species has declined across its native range through harvesting for the skin, traditional medicine and pet trade, as well as habitat degradation. Zug et al. (2011) stated that pythons are rare in Myanmar. It is reported to be rare in Cambodia, Lao PDR and Viet Nnam (Q.T. Nguyen and T. Neang pers. comm. August 2011). The Vietnam Red Data Book estimates a decline in this species of more than 80% over 10 years in this country (Dang et al. 2007). This snake is now very rare in mainland China, as it is heavily exploited for food and skins, with population declines estimated at 90% over ten years (Wang and Xie 2009), although it remains common in Hong Kong where it is a protected species. No population data is available for this species in any part of its Indonesian range (M. Auliya pers. comm. September 2011), however, it is now very rare in Indonesia, and is difficult for even traders to find (M. Auliya and D. Iskandar pers. comm. September 2011). It is common in Thailand, where its protected status is well-enforced (T. Chan-ard pers. comm. August 2011). Although rates of decline are not available for many areas of this snake's range, the observation that it is declining throughout its native range and the scale of declines reported from China and Viet Nam justify a conservative estimate of population declines over the past 10 years in excess of 30%, and potentially close to or exceeding 50% over the preceding ten years, with declines ongoing due to heavy exploitation and, to a lesser degree, habitat loss. Population Trend: Decreasing
Source: IUCN RED LISTING

So not finding snakes proves that the pythons are there in mass? Had the "us biologist" crowd been looking to protect the pythons instead of causing python hysteria. They would be using the POOR results of the python challenge as validation that the species was in severe decline and in need of protection. The endangered species list, population studies and words from the biologist themselves is proof of the contradiction in this. The spin doctor is in.

The python challenge will not be repeated. The "folks" who suggested that perhaps the python hysteria was mostly hype are correct. Every where within the Burmese pythons native range the snakes are protected because they have been over collected. Ernie Eison
If the population density of these snakes was anywhere near the number the “Giant Constrictor Risk Assessment Partnership,” would love you to believe. These snakes would be found in good numbers on a regular basis. In order for the snakes to have caused a massive decline in the Everglades mammal population as the “Giant Constrictor Risk Assessment Partnership,” claims. It would require a massive population density of snakes. Period.

Saying you would have only a 1% chance of encountering one of these snakes when actively searching in an area with an immense population is ridiculous. The proof is how world wide the populations of these animals has been decimated by over collection.

The only source of information that claims the pythons are the cuase of a decline in the Everglades mammal population is the “Giant Constrictor Risk Assessment Partnership,”. Their proof is a paper based on a study they conducted that was nothing more than driving around and counting what they saw. About this ,

The authors state: “However, our reliance on indirect estimates
of mammal abundance in ENP is the result of a nearly
complete absence of actual density or population size estimates based on rigorous and repeatable field methods.”

That is a slick little disclaimer that is an academic way of saying they did not follow correct scientific protocol and that their work is essentially junk science.

I discussed what was said at the Florida FIsh and Wildlife commission meeting. The perceived mammal decline is attributed to hydrology issues. There is a wealth of peer reviewed publication on this topic to support this hypothesis. Not only are hydrology issues tied to mammal declines but also fish and wading bird declines. The system is broken.

Ernie Eison
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by hellihooks »

Since 1st mentioned in this thread, I can't stop wondering how many small burms might be getting eating by the resurgent Wood stork population. :| jim
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Trey
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by Trey »

I think streps makes a lot of great points, but whatever.

The emerald ash borer is pretty damn scary to me up in Ohio. Northwest Ohio has been hit by it pretty bad, driving through that area it looks worse every year.
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WSTREPS
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Re: Which Exotic Species are Really Scary?

Post by WSTREPS »

Ernie
Could the monitors be responsible for the increase in owls because they may be eating what was the owls predators??

Maybe they find whatever was eating the owls quite delicious and dont bother with owls unless they are injured etc?

No, I don't think so. There was a study done in Australia on the comparative relationship between monitors, feral cats and foxes. These animals compete and co-exist without one dominating the other. Changes in abundance of interactive species can have cascading, community-wide effects. There is ZERO evidence to support the notion that this is happening due to any of the introduced reptile species being discussed in this thread.

The cape is loaded with owl predators. Obviously the defenses these birds have are effective against a wide range of attack methods. An injured bird such as you described, it's probably a goner. Something will get it. Maybe a monitor (statistically the least likely) or maybe a cat, etc. Its a jump ball. That's the way it works.

It's possible that one of the reasons the owls are an unattractive prey item for the lizards is how they live. Right out in the open. Niles are diurnal and secretive. They like to hunt around cover especially near water where they can dive in and escape at the first sign of trouble. Crossing a wide open stretch of ground in broad daylight is not an appealing idea to them.
A survey of 35 species indicates that monitor lizards (Varanus) typically hunt over large areas, search in particular microhabitats, and feed frequently on a wide variety of prey, many of which are relatively small. There is ontogenetic, seasonal, and geographic variation in diet. With some exceptions, invertebrates are the predominant prey, but rare predation on vertebrates is often energetically significant.
Ecological and evolutionary implications of diet in monitor lizards
JONATHAN B. LOSOS, HARRY W. GREENE
According to the research. Even big Niles typically feed on small prey. Studies show that larger monitors are more often found to have nothing in their stomachs. In doesn't matter if its Africa or Florida their feeding habits are the same.

The capes owl population is a un-natural by product of the man made surroundings.The Cape Coral owl population primarily lives in vacant residential lots E.g., an artificial environment.

Cape Coral has been converted from slash pine , lowland Flatwoods and tidal swamp into a residential area built around a network of man-made canals and flanked by coastal mangrove and marsh habitats. Cape Coral Florida has over 400 miles of canals, more than any other city in the world.

The top picture shows how the burrowing owl nest is taped off and marked in the Cape. The second you can see the owl better. The last is a Nile I caught and kept as personal pet for a while. Subsequently, it was given to a nature center.


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