Masters at A&M?

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DracoRJC
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Masters at A&M?

Post by DracoRJC »

Hey all,
(Deleted)

Anyway, my focus has shifted to Texas A&M, and my family and I will be moving to Austin for other reasons in the next 6 months. A professor of mine assigned us a paper in which we have to write about an environmental topic we care about, and I chose rattlesnake roundups. I ended up using Dr. Fitzgerald's paper on roundups as a source, and am going to write more about it on our next assignment, which is to investigate career options and graduate schools. I am going to contact Fitzgerald and other A&M faculty directly, of course, but I have not yet found the time to do so.

However, most importantly I want to hear from a herpetologist's/herper's perspective here on FHF, with any inside information or tips you all might have about A&M. Roundups are a subject that I am very interested in, and any graduate work pertaining to them would be a fantastic opportunity for me. Any information is much appreciated, and thanks in advance!

Ryan
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justinm
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by justinm »

Can you expound on what you mean by Pianka being a "wacko"? I would sit by him for sure, and likely not talk just listen to what he has to say.
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klawnskale
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by klawnskale »

Oh you mean "Doctor Doom"? I dunno...I tend to agree with him on certain points. Granted he exercises sensationalism to get his points across, but this is probably due to a past career in media communications which he exploits to the fullest (i can relate to this). Check out this article http://www.evolutionnews.org/2006/04/do ... 02118.html The man's credentials are highly credible and regarded. Heck he even coauthored an article for "Natural History" with Forum's own Sam Sweet.
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The Jake-Man
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by The Jake-Man »

That article makes him sound like a villain from a Richard Preston novel.
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klawnskale
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by klawnskale »

The Jake-Man wrote:That article makes him sound like a villain from a Richard Preston novel.
:lol: :lol: :lol: it's all puffery in the delivery... Was anyone here present when Charles Lowe gave his talk at a herpetology conference in LACNHM? He literally raise his arms in up in the air and stated "it's all over..." Another colorful character in herpetology. When a student told him she wanted to be a
bioloigst so she could help the world and people he replied "If you want to help people be a nurse or a doctor; not a biologist."
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chrish
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by chrish »

Ryan,

Your degree and education are what you make of them, not where you go.
If you do want to consider TAMU, then contact Lee Fitzgerald and talk to him. He is a really nice guy and I'm sure he will be willing to talk to you about your options at TAMU and the sorts of projects he is currently interested in pursuing.

Don't be too fixated on one particular project though. One of the really great thing about graduate school is that it can open your mind to research avenues you may have not previously considered. Read what he is currently doing - http://agrilife.org/fitzgerald/ and then communicate with him.

Chris
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klawnskale
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by klawnskale »

I applied for a technician position for his research on the dune sagebrush lizard. He contacted me about replacing someonet but I had all ready accepted another position. I would like to work with him some day.
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DracoRJC
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by DracoRJC »

Chrish, thanks for the reply - that's reassuring :)

As for Pianka - I was a fan of his work and really enjoyed his appearance on the NOVA documentary about monitors. I had the impression that he was getting some sick delight from trapping me in his office and giving me the most hopeless, apocalyptic speech about the state of humanity that I have ever heard. Like one of you mentioned, when I told him I wanted to make a difference, he literally told me that I never would if I wanted to become a biologist. He didn't tell me to become a nurse of a doctor in order to help people though - he just told me that everything was utterly hopeless and that going to college was a "joke". Ugh. He just make me sick to my stomach. Never have I had a worse first impression from someone I thought was cool. He does know his lizards though, and has impressive credentials, I'll give him that.

In any case, I don't want this to be a thread about bashing anyone, even if I don't like them. So far only one comment has had anything to do with A&M :lol:

edit: sorry, make that two lol
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

I don't have much to add about TAMU. They have a sizable museum collection which is a hallmark of good herp schools.

Grad school is about finding an adviser that you are compatible with and a project you like. Its good to meet potential advisers to see how you get along, you'll be spending a lot of time them.... Having said that, a masters is only two-three years, so as long as you like your project you should be able to finish.

More and more the expectation for a masters degree is to publish at least one peer-reviewed journal article. You'll want to make sure to discuss this up front with your adviser and read the departments graduate handbook. Its important to know what the expectations are up front.


I'm glad to hear Pianka's not dead yet. His obituary is interesting:

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~varanus/obit.html
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klawnskale
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by klawnskale »

Bryan that obit was just way too funny. This man obviously lives life with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. I wish I could pursue a grad degree, I might consider him as an advisor.
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by Gluesenkamp »

Pianka?
I suppose it could be slightly unnerving to sit next to someone who (not so) secretly wishes that you and everyone else in the building was dead.
I enjoyed every bit of being his student- right up to the moment he grabbed me by the neck and invited me to a fistfight outside. Actually, it may have been a terrible experience all the way through but that little highlight stands out for some reason...
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gbin
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by gbin »

In a similar vein...

Though I'm not at all a violent person, during one particularly memorable academic committee meeting I came quite close to punching out my master's degree program advisor. He was also my boss at the time (and I was conducting my research at my place of employment), very unfortunately, and because he became impatient with the pace of my project - which was proceeding exactly on schedule and per my committee's approval - he used his leverage over me to demand that I change how it was being done midstream. My vigorous protestations that doing so would seriously mess up both my project and my orderly progression toward my degree went to no avail. I don't remember, but he might even have actually said "It's my way or the highway!" Sure enough, the change did indeed seriously mess up the project (and add several months to my program), and when I next met with my committee they all wanted to know why I had so obviously and erroneously deviated from the agreed upon plan. I was about to tell them "Because Ron ordered me to do so as my boss!" when Ron himself managed to say first "Yeah, Gerry, why on earth did you do that?!?" :shock: Another one of my committee members, a very bright, perceptive and kindly older woman who was the dean of the university's veterinary school, gently but firmly placed her hand on my arm as I began to rise from my seat beside her with intent to at the very least knock Ron unconscious. (I have my doubts as to whether I would have stopped there.) She kept her grip on me as she said "It doesn't really matter how we got to this point, let's just figure out where to go from here" and until I relaxed a bit in the ensuing discussion. Ron was clueless as to how close he came to blows. That was typical of him, though; he was adept at twisting the knife in the back of someone he'd just stabbed and convincing himself that he was acting in their best interest all the while. A few years later when it came time for me to start a doctoral program he was genuinely confused and hurt that I looked to do it with anyone but him, and when I found an advisor who suited me at a university half the country away he was even more confused and hurt when I gave due notice and then walked away from a job with good pay, great benefits and a solid future to be no more than an unemployed student elsewhere. His outrageously unethical and self-serving but otherwise counterproductive behavior routinely provoked squabbles between us that would clear the whole side of the building where we were officed, and yet he couldn't understand why I was unwilling to remain his right-hand man. :roll:

I'm sorry I can't advise you on Texas A&M, Ryan, but I'll use the opportunity to repeat my regular advice for prospective graduate students: Choosing someone who you feel fairly sure you're compatible with and you'll be comfortable working with for your major advisor is more important than any other consideration, including which school/program, what project, how big a name the advisor is in the field, etc. If you get an uneasy feeling from someone you're considering (from them directly or through their current/past students) - let alone come to conclude that s/he's "completely wacko"! - then you should most definitely look in another direction.

Gerry
troy hibbitts
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by troy hibbitts »

my brother (Toby Hibbitts) is also at TAMU and has some grad students and projects . . . he and Lee work together on projects. Both Toby and Lee do a lot of lizard research if you're interested in those sorts of projects.
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by Lizardman1988 »

gbin wrote:In a similar vein...

Though I'm not at all a violent person, during one particularly memorable academic committee meeting I came quite close to punching out my master's degree program advisor. He was also my boss at the time (and I was conducting my research at my place of employment), very unfortunately, and because he became impatient with the pace of my project - which was proceeding exactly on schedule and per my committee's approval - he used his leverage over me to demand that I change how it was being done midstream. My vigorous protestations that doing so would seriously mess up both my project and my orderly progression toward my degree went to no avail. I don't remember, but he might even have actually said "It's my way or the highway!" Sure enough, the change did indeed seriously mess up the project (and add several months to my program), and when I next met with my committee they all wanted to know why I had so obviously and erroneously deviated from the agreed upon plan. I was about to tell them "Because Ron ordered me to do so as my boss!" when Ron himself managed to say first "Yeah, Gerry, why on earth did you do that?!?" :shock: Another one of my committee members, a very bright, perceptive and kindly older woman who was the dean of the university's veterinary school, gently but firmly placed her hand on my arm as I began to rise from my seat beside her with intent to at the very least knock Ron unconscious. (I have my doubts as to whether I would have stopped there.) She kept her grip on me as she said "It doesn't really matter how we got to this point, let's just figure out where to go from here" and until I relaxed a bit in the ensuing discussion. Ron was clueless as to how close he came to blows. That was typical of him, though; he was adept at twisting the knife in the back of someone he'd just stabbed and convincing himself that he was acting in their best interest all the while. A few years later when it came time for me to start a doctoral program he was genuinely confused and hurt that I looked to do it with anyone but him, and when I found an advisor who suited me at a university half the country away he was even more confused and hurt when I gave due notice and then walked away from a job with good pay, great benefits and a solid future to be no more than an unemployed student elsewhere. His outrageously unethical and self-serving but otherwise counterproductive behavior routinely provoked squabbles between us that would clear the whole side of the building where we were officed, and yet he couldn't understand why I was unwilling to remain his right-hand man. :roll:

I'm sorry I can't advise you on Texas A&M, Ryan, but I'll use the opportunity to repeat my regular advice for prospective graduate students: Choosing someone who you feel fairly sure you're compatible with and you'll be comfortable working with for your major advisor is more important than any other consideration, including which school/program, what project, how big a name the advisor is in the field, etc. If you get an uneasy feeling from someone you're considering (from them directly or through their current/past students) - let alone come to conclude that s/he's "completely wacko"! - then you should most definitely look in another direction.

Gerry
As someone who is currently looking for PhD advisors, this is welcome advice, and well said. I've had a great relationship with my Master's advisor, but I've heard enough stories to know how far in the other direction the situation can swing. It is getting tough to find a program though, as funding everywhere is low, and there is little to no room for new students, but many applicants. I wouldn't doubt that one would be tempted to jump on any opportunity that presents itself, which could lead to a bad advisor-student situation. For myself, it is looking like I will have to apply again next year, as my options are running thin right now.
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by klawnskale »

Gerry: the description of your experiences (as frustrating and exasperating as they may have been) are commonly occuring situations in real life. A grad student working with an advisor is perhaps his/her first experience learning the ropes to cope, deal, strategize, sublimate and work cooperatively with other individuals to accomplish goals and establish oneself as a respected working professional. How different is it to be subjected to the whims of a difficult advisor as it is to working for a manager of a fast food business who has a habit of being a nitpicker and overly critical? These are life lessons.
Often times managers (especially middle management) and supervisors have character flaws (like everyone else) and will utilize opportunities to belittle those on the lower end of the pecking order in order to boost their own egos and lack of self confidence. As a younger, less experienced person goes through life, they learn to overcome these problems and develop strategies to circumvent and manipulate these issues to attain their goals and perhaps
influence their supervisor to be less negatively critical and more beneficial to their achievements. Learning to discern which issues to roll off your back and picking battles becomes essential. Life Lessons! BTW, if anyone is questioning my opinions, they have evolved from working for 10 years in the advertising industry and 15 years in the film industry. I can't think of two more brutally valid training grounds.
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gbin
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by gbin »

klawnskale, there's plenty of good, basic wisdom in your post. I should emphasize, though, that in my case I wasn't caught unaware of nor somehow unprepared for dealing with my situation due to workplace naivete.

I was employed steadily from the time I was rather young and so already had considerable work experience and in varied positions and situations - and all successful from both my and the employers' perspectives, I might add, regardless of whether I found myself working for a sweetheart or an a$$hole in any given job - by the time I began working for that guy, and more than enough experience from working for him to know what he was like before I began my master's studies under him. Ron was a serious combination of capriciousness and dishonesty with more than a touch of cruelty thrown in, to the point where employees under him regularly filed formal grievances due to his treatment of them. (He's retired now, but I do believe I hold the record for length of time anyone spent working under him without filing a grievance against him, and by quite a bit at that.) A few people also brought lawsuits against him and against our employer because of him. Professionally he was prone both to trampling people in various self-serving ways, which I know is fairly common among upper manager-types, and to taking whatever shortcuts he could find to get where he thought he wanted to go regardless of how unethical (or worse) those shortcuts might be. The latter area is actually where most of the difficulties arose between him and me. In one instance, for example, he tried to pad a scientific paper which he, I and another fellow collaboratively wrote with a bunch of references which none of us had ever seen but which had been recommended by a reviewer. When I explained to him that we couldn't do this but that I would take a few days of my own time to look at the references he was interested in and work them into the paper as seemed justified, he insisted that we not delay resubmission long enough for me to do this. (He was big on setting arbitrary, preferably very rushed, deadlines.) I said I simply couldn't go along with that, so he promptly put on his boss' hat and kicked me out of the meeting the three of us were having to discuss revisions, intending to strip my name off of the paper even though I'd actually done most of the work on it. He only backed down in that instance because the other guy, emboldened by my stance, said he couldn't go along with the reference padding or stripping of my authorship, either, and Ron was afraid that word of his misbehavior might subsequently reach broader scientific circles.

The simple, sad truth is that when it came time to start working on my master's degree I thought a mix of 1) "it doesn't matter how badly he treats me," and 2) "I can handle whatever he might try to do that would interfere with my program - after all, it's my program." I realized that despite Ron, I nonetheless had a very good deal in a number of ways, and up until that point I had been able to handle him pretty well. (Much better than anyone else, as I said; you had to have a pretty thick skin - or head - to stand up to his bullying.) I also had a co-major advisor who I thought the world of and who I thought would help keep Ron under control. But as Ron realized how much more leverage he had over me as not only my boss but also my major advisor his behavior got correspondingly worse, and my co-major advisor got too busy with the globetrotting demands of his own work to be of any assistance. I really blame myself, regardless. At least a few people warned me of the utter importance of the relationship between graduate student and major advisor, if not as strongly as I now warn prospective students, and I ignored those warnings.

Life lessons, indeed! That's the one that's really relevant here: focus first and foremost on how well you think you'll relate to your prospective advisor, and keep in mind that other considerations are much less important (if important at all).

Gerry
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by klawnskale »

Gerry: The vivid description you give of Ron is indicative unfortunately of many managers that are capable of thriving with relentless tenacity in the work place. They have learned the art of manipulation by bullying and intimidation to maintain their status quo. Such personalities are rife in the media industry. One of the reasons I eventually decided to gracefully bow out of it. Putting up and having to adjust my own behaviors in order to achieve some semblance of cooperation and to make working with them worthwhile was getting old. I kept having to remind myself of the benefits in the long haul of practicing tolerance. It was making me too callous and bitter and I didn't like it. I finally had a way out when I reached middle age and decided to pursue endeavous that would insure peace, satisfaction, and a sense of well being where I was immersed in something that was not only making me happy but at the same time contributing something to the rest of the world. For those grad students who are finding working with their advisors agonizing and frustrating at times, just keep reminding yourself that this is most likely only a fleeting (but painful) moment in the progression of your life's timeline;
there were probably justifiable and valuable reasons why you wanted to work with this person. Concentrate on the most positive benefits of this relationship, reap from it, and it will be over before you know it.
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by teter247 »

Pianka is wacko? I have not gathered that assertion from his HUNDREDS of publications...

I believe that you will find that most major professors are a bit "wacko", which is why they think on a different level and have attained the level they're at...

I second Troy's assertion. If you want to get to know A&M's program contact Toby. Although I can tell you Toby is completely Bat-Crap crazy...literally insane...a total nutjob.

You can't go wrong by going maroon...

TH
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

You all have seen the paper "Some modest advice for graduate students"?

I think it originated from a talk titled "Cynical advice for graduate students". I love some of the the bullet points:

Always Prepare for the Worst

Nobody Cares About You

You Must Know Why Your Work is Important

Psychological Problems are the Biggest Barriers

Manage Your Advisors

Stearns, S.C., Huey, R., 1987. Some modest advice for graduate students. Bulletin of the Ecological Society of America 68, 145-153.
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by gbin »

klawnskale wrote:... It was making me too callous and bitter and I didn't like it...
I can relate all too well. I'd already had it with this guy being my major advisor before his treachery in that academic committee meeting; his behavior there was really only the last straw so far as any interest I had in studying under him. There was no way I was going to do my Ph.D. with him however otherwise exciting the possibilities might have been (e.g. studying tigers in Sumatra was some of the bait he dangled in front of me to try to keep me with him). But believe it or not I still entertained the possibility of doing my Ph.D. with someone else in the area, in particular that co-advisor I mentioned, and continuing to work for him. You know what made me finally give up on that idea? My wife told me that she felt I was acquiring some of his behavior - not the dishonesty, but the aggressiveness/callousness. At that point I knew I had to make a complete break with him whatever it cost me.

You bring up a good piece of corollary advice, too. If despite a student's best efforts s/he finds her/himself stuck with a major advisor s/he considers distasteful or worse, it's quite likely that the best course of action is to grin and bear it. Keep the eye on the prize.

It should be pointed out, too, that it's not necessarily - I'm sure not usually, even - a case of a potential advisor being a good or bad person. What really matters is whether a particular advisor is a good or bad fit for a particular student. One person's wacko is quite possibly another person's genius, after all, and as the saying goes "there's no accounting for taste."

Gerry
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by jason folt »

I can't help you with your direct question. I would caution you to be careful what you post online. As someone who interviews and evaluates candidates for a similar type of training program (physician residency programs) I can say that I would not find it attractive to see you calling a colleague wacko in a public forum. That would raise red flags for me, even if I agreed with you. The herpetology field is very small...

Best of luck,

Jason
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by klawnskale »

I can say that I would not find it attractive to see you calling a colleague wacko in a public forum. That would raise red flags for me, even if I agreed with you. The herpetology field is very small...

Jason, you address a poignant topic that is unique to this current college generation and its utilization of social media. When I went to college many moons ago (well after the horse and buggy era but so far as 20 somethings today are concerned, may as well have been), we didn't have all these sites or applications to our avail to hang out our dirty laundry for scrutiny by the public masses. This creates additional issues that unfortunately young people today may naively overlook or just not seriously consider. You will never be completely sure who maybe viewing your comments or photos on Facebook, Twiiter, Wordpress Blogs,
Intstagram, a Public Forum or just texting that 'unique' photo to someone via smartphone (it can be forwarded to someone you didn't intend to see it).
Nowadays, many people involved in Human Resources will utilize social media to investigate potential hiring candidates. This includes grad student advisors
considering a potential student for their program. I am aware of one such individual who does this. It can be so tempting to throw caution to the wind without regarding the long term repercussions of your actions and decisions. Just food for thought here...
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by VanAR »

I've been tremendously lucky in my experiences with advisors and supervisors throughout my BS, PhD, and 2 postdocs so far. I agree 100% with Gerry that the primary key is to make sure you can work with the person, above all else. What you make out of your degree rests mostly upon your own shoulders anyway. Their reputation alone is good for writing reference letters, but its for naught if you haven't produced in your own career.

You've made the right call by visiting and meeting potential advisors. Keep doing that. Also talk to as many current and former students/technicians/RAs as you can. Most of the time they will tell you the truth about their own experiences working with that PI, and will also tell you about the environment in the lab itself. Take their warnings and advice seriously. Every student I've known who had a poor experience didn't take the free advice they were given. Learn from others and be without ego.

Try to pay close attention to what a potential supervisor talks about and says to you during your interviews. Use that (along with testimonials from current students) to gauge how the supervisor deals with students. I had one potential supervisor go on and on about safety issues in handling venomous snakes, and then promptly scooped up a juvenile coral snake in his bare hands and told me "the rule is do as I say, not as I do". That was a big red flag. The PI I ended up working with gave me a nearly hour-long speech describing the fun and perks of the job, and then about how hard academic life was and how if there was anything else I could see myself doing, I should go do that instead. I appreciated his honesty and that he could see the duality of academia with a clear eye, and it worked out really well.

Always be wary of egos. There are a lot of them in academia, and at its core academia should be as far away from ego as humanly possible. The whole purpose is simply to learn, teach, and communicate, and ego only complicates all three of those enterprises.
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gbin
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Re: Masters at A&M?

Post by gbin »

VanAR wrote:... I had one potential supervisor go on and on about safety issues in handling venomous snakes, and then promptly scooped up a juvenile coral snake in his bare hands...
When my wife and I were deciding on doctoral programs, her first contact with the fellow who she ended up going with for her major advisor was by long-distance telephone call. He had quite a bit of "good old boy" charm without the sexism that so often accompanies it, and she liked him right off. After that conversation she also told me excitedly about the natural wonders regularly enjoyed by folks at the university and in the surrounding area, as that fellow had at one point interrupted their discussion to describe to her in rhapsodic terms the osprey he was at that very moment watching dive into the lake outside his office window. Of course, once she met him - and saw his office - in person she realized he was just giving her a sales pitch; his office window was narrow enough that it barely showed the nearby water chilling plant and power substation buildings (for air-conditioning buildings in that part of campus) that more or less completely blocked his view of anything else - and there was no view anywhere in or beside the entire department building of the nearest body of water. :lol: She decided she didn't mind his little(?) white lie so much, though, as he really was a nice guy and the environment really was lovely.

Anyway, lots of these folks will tell you whatever they think they're supposed to tell you or whatever they think you'll want to hear. Lots of prospective students run such sales pitches on possible advisors, too. It's human nature, I suppose. Too bad we don't all just stick to the plain and simple truth as we see it, and be done with it.
VanAR wrote:Always be wary of egos. There are a lot of them in academia, and at its core academia should be as far away from ego as humanly possible. The whole purpose is simply to learn, teach, and communicate, and ego only complicates all three of those enterprises.
I agree with the warning for prospective students, but would say instead that one shouldn't try to avoid a major advisor with ego; rather, avoid those with ego issues (that might lead them to trample over subordinates, to do something unethical, etc.). Virtually all of us have some kind of ego, after all, and more talented people - in any field, I reckon - often have more pronounced ones. Just be sure to look for compatibility in a prospective advisor in this respect as well as in others, and to come to a clear understanding with him/her from the outset concerning areas where ego could become a problem, such as in the order of authorships of papers resulting from collaborative work. Focusing on that example to illustrate the point: Some professors put their names first on any papers coming out of their labs regardless of whether their students actually did the bulk of the work, some put their names last regardless of whether they did most of the work themselves, and some aim for authorship order to reflect tangible contribution without respect to hierarchy. It's not that one of these is right and the others wrong, really, but simply that you should have a good understanding of which situation you're getting yourself into and whether you're fine with it.

I'd say, too, that ego certainly has a potentially useful place in academia, just as I believe it does elsewhere. Where I see scientists getting into trouble due to their egos, it's generally not a matter of them having too much ego (though that does indeed occur) but rather of them investing it in the wrong place. Put your ego behind the quality of your work (am I doing the best science I know how? am I doing my best by my students?) rather than its results (did this project have the findings that I asserted it would? am I cranking out finished students fast enough?) and you should be ok. Unless you're so full of yourself for whatever reason that you're insufferable to everyone around you, of course... ;)

Gerry
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