Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

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Aquaboy74
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Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Aquaboy74 »

I was out hiking with the kids when we came across this guy crossing the road. Man they can put on a heck of a show! We chased it off the road and into the brush after the photo shoot. There were way too many people around and i figured some tool would smash it first and ask questions later.


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brick911
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by brick911 »

Good work. These guys probably don't stand much of a chance to someone snake fearing who doesn't know any better. Shoot, I wouldn't have killed it but ten years ago I probably would have thought it was a Cobra. Thanks for sharing the pics!

Bob
Notread
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Notread »

A rare snake, indeed, for Northern New Jersey. I sure am glad someone was there to move it along and not take it and sell it.
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by BillMcGighan »

Very cool...
Kudos for watching over it, especially with other general public hanging around.
.
Just as a pointless aside, there is a location in Sussex Co. where 3 out of 4 Hogs are black. Most other areas melanistics are a small percentage.

Regards, Bill
bobassetto
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by bobassetto »

there were several areas were tan hogs were found.....i've also seen greenish ones.....were the genetics ever worked out???......like is pattern decided by a gene mechanism????.......as in dalmation dogs and holstein cattle???....with perhaps the solid pattern gene being recessive and of little frequency???? :|
Notread
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Notread »

Why do people know this
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by BillMcGighan »

Why do people know this
Which part???
Aquaboy74
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Aquaboy74 »

BillMcGighan wrote: Just as a pointless aside, there is a location in Sussex Co. where 3 out of 4 Hogs are black. Most other areas melanistics are a small percentage.

Regards, Bill

Thanks all! This is an interesting fact. I have only found one other Hog in Jersey and it was standard tan with darker tan banding. That is an interesting fact. Have you done this count first hand and seen the results? I would love to see a clutch of them hatch out for a accurate reading. Cool stuff indeed.

Mike
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David O
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by David O »

Cool pics, but your watermark is too small.
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by BillMcGighan »

Have you done this count first hand and seen the results?
First hand ....
Of course, I can't give (or won't give) the location beyond Sussex Co., especially with the NJ population growth. This was regularly herping, birding, hunting, fishing, etc. and observing a semi-protected area continuously for 14+ years, all four seasons.
None were collected.
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kyle loucks
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by kyle loucks »

I have found black and patterned examples in south Jersey as well.
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TheNuge
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by TheNuge »

Very cool snake. Love it's display for you.
Notread
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Notread »

BillMcGighan wrote:
Have you done this count first hand and seen the results?
First hand ....
Of course, I can't give (or won't give) the location beyond Sussex Co., especially with the NJ population growth. This was regularly herping, birding, hunting, fishing, etc. and observing a semi-protected area continuously for 14+ years, all four seasons.
None were collected.
:beer:
Notread
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Notread »

I have witnessed a blatant and undeniable population decline (to nearly zero) at a spot in Northern New Jersey, along with the other sensitive species that lived there. Not cool, and seriously have to wonder if collecting has played a hand in this. I was sick through-out last season with Lyme, so I didn't have much field time, but reports from friends indicate it was just as bad last year as well.
Aquaboy74
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Aquaboy74 »

Notread wrote:I have witnessed a blatant and undeniable population decline (to nearly zero) at a spot in Northern New Jersey, along with the other sensitive species that lived there. Not cool, and seriously have to wonder if collecting has played a hand in this. I was sick through-out last season with Lyme, so I didn't have much field time, but reports from friends indicate it was just as bad last year as well.


Thats sad! I hope this does not pan out to be true. They are not good pets anyway. They are supposedly real hard to get them to eat rodents. Toads are not an easy food source to come by year round anyway.

Speaking of toads... have any of you noticed a decline in toads that corresponds with the decline in Hogs? May be a possibility? Food is gone or moved so snakes followed? If some local construction dries up the vernal pools the toads use that would force them to find new breeding ground and the snakes should follow.

Mike
Bold Cub
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Bold Cub »

In various locations in PA and DE I have seen toads with some sort of fungus growing on them. I don't know what causes this, but I imagine it is affecting the populations. For a few years, in Berks County, PA they seemed to be in decline, but in recent years they seem to have been more numerous from my observations.
bobassetto
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by bobassetto »

eastern hogs(i don't think) ever were good captives.....when switched over to rodents....they would feed well and suffer sudden death syndrome.....i've never read any work on this....but there may be something in the toads that they need (like horned lizards and formic acid)....or something in the rodents that causes a toxic shock type event????........getting back to the morphs.....i think the pattern of the eastern hog is a consistent type spotting with different color components.....which may indicate a pattern gene.....dominant= spotted....recessive= unicolor.......but i 've never seen any genetic type work....and if i ain't wrong the babies are all patterned when they hatch......the unicolor type changes with maturity......thoughts???
Aquaboy74
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Aquaboy74 »

As far as the diet is concerned, I know from working with kings and milks that there are problems with the animals being able to metabolize the fat from the rodents causing liver and kidney failure due to the over time work needed to strip the fats. Its very possible that Hogs would suffer the same fate. An alternative may be in birds for food. They have a different type of fat and would probably be the closest to reptiles and amphibians as far as lean meat and similar body fat type. Again these are just theories. No hard scientific evidence to back any of this up except for the kidney and liver failure part.

The color of them as juveniles i cant seem to find any info. The few people working with easterns seem not to have the black in their lines. They are also all in Florida and Texas. There may not be that melanistic morph in that range. Who knows? I would love to find out though.

I would love the opportunity to work with them. I met a man at the white plains reptile show that claims he was granted by i believe NY state to breed and restock some colubrids. I would like to see it first hand but its worth a shout at fish and game to be granted some permission to do this. Learn what the steps are etc. If these snakes are in decline and in Jersey we have a unique gene pool possessing many melonistics that would be well worth the effort to explore. Especially when we seem to be cutting down and tearing up almost every last stitch of forest we have at a blinding speed.

Wow...Take a breath. Any thoughts?

Mike
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Matt J
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Matt J »

Bold Cub wrote:In various locations in PA and DE I have seen toads with some sort of fungus growing on them. I don't know what causes this, but I imagine it is affecting the populations.
Do you have any other reports or pictures of this? A majority of the American toads I found at a single pond in Baltimore Co., MD had open legions on their abdomen, people I asked chalked it up to fungus or some other type of pathogen.
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kyle loucks
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by kyle loucks »

Aquaboy74 wrote: I would love the opportunity to work with them. I met a man at the white plains reptile show that claims he was granted by i believe NY state to breed and restock some colubrids. I would like to see it first hand but its worth a shout at fish and game to be granted some permission to do this. Learn what the steps are etc. If these snakes are in decline and in Jersey we have a unique gene pool possessing many melonistics that would be well worth the effort to explore. Especially when we seem to be cutting down and tearing up almost every last stitch of forest we have at a blinding speed.

Wow...Take a breath. Any thoughts?

Mike
Restocking is not a widely accepted practice given the threat of disease to a wild population and alteration of the gene pool. I find it hard to believe any state entity would sanction such a practice to any individual. I also believe it is illegal.
Aquaboy74
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Aquaboy74 »

I found it hard to believe also. But he claims its so. I will make it a point to hunt him down at the next show to get further details. On the other hand the fish guys do it all the time. Stocking and re-stocking.
Aquaboy74
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Aquaboy74 »

And this just in. I have a confirmation that they all start out patterned and turn black with age.
Paul White
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Paul White »

Aquaboy; I have to question that about milks and kings. I know plenty of breeders that have Lampropeltis (of various species) that are fed rodent diets and live over 20 years...getula, mexicana, ruthvenii, triangulum....I mean it may be true for the hoggies (I don't know any breeders personally) but for the Lampros I really have to wonder about that.
Aquaboy74
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Aquaboy74 »

I have been told... it is more common in the smaller species like L. t. syspilia, L. t. gentillis and basically any specialized feeder that feeds on reptiles and amphibians we try to convert to our fat domestic rodents. The smaller snakes cant really get rodents in their diets in the wild due to size restrictions. Another snake or lizard is much easier to swallow. The western Hogs seem to be a little more forgiving then the easterns again, im told. I personally believe we need to consider wild diets as a necessity to these animals. But im not working with them anyway so this is ALL hearsay!

Whats your thoughts?
Paul White
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Paul White »

I wouldn't rule it out for all species--particularly those with very specialized diets (see: mud snakes, egg eaters). But I know a few North American milksnake guys that use rodents for some of ours (pale milk, plains milk) and they've got animals 20+ years old. They also don't feed heavily though (I think, Id have to ask what frequency they feed adults). So I'm just not sure it's an issue in that particular case.

Of course, I don't know what the *natural* life span is; there's lots of conjecture and a lot of literature states average wild life span...but that includes factors like starvation and predation which really shouldn't be an issue in captivity.

Oneo f the more encouraging developments in the herpetocultural hobby, to me, is the increased variety in feeders; quail and chicks and roaches and silkworms are welcome additions to rats, mice and crickets as staple diets. I just sorta hope that at some point, someone figures out how to produce anurans and better feeder fish than goldfish!
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spinifer
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by spinifer »

Bold Cub wrote:In various locations in PA and DE I have seen toads with some sort of fungus growing on them. I don't know what causes this, but I imagine it is affecting the populations. For a few years, in Berks County, PA they seemed to be in decline, but in recent years they seem to have been more numerous from my observations.

I had the same question as Matt. If you dont have any pictures can you describe what it looked like? And please take photographs next time you observe it in the field and post to the NE Chapter.
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BillMcGighan
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by BillMcGighan »

Wow..
Your post took on a life of its own in a positive way, several interesting sub threads!!!!
.
Still, not to take away from the original, It's still very laudable that you saw the animal off to safety, with several people around. More than once, I’ve had to stop some twit from picking up a rock, even after explaining why not to bother these animals. One was even an avid birder who really should have known better.

Apparently, uni-color Easterns are throughout their range. I’ve observed them in Florida, Virginia, North Carolina, West Virginia, Missouri, as well as the north east. Seems like it could be a trait that had an evolutionary advantage during a cooler climate, and is not a disadvantage now in warmer times… Definite maybe ….

Another aside… I can count on only ten fingers, the number of Hogs I’ve found under tin, but this Northern Virginia tin had a whole lineup of snake species over a year and a half (1970), which, on one occasion, included 3 Hogs at once! ….and 3 color phases!!!! Go figure!!!

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Bold Cub
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Bold Cub »

Here is the only picture I have of one of the affected toads. This was taken at Trap Pond, DE. (Mods, feel free to remove location if it is too specific)
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100_6051 by Bold Cub, on Flickr
bobassetto
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by bobassetto »

1970!!!!!!!!......i was 21.......and my first okeetee trip!!!!!........with stops in dismal swamp......marion......croatan......hyde......got my first red pyg.....elapsoides.....that year......up til that year it was all jersey/del/maryland/pa......
Aquaboy74
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Aquaboy74 »

[quote="BillMcGighan"]Wow..
Still, not to take away from the original, It's still very laudable that you saw the animal off to safety, with several people around. More than once, I’ve had to stop some twit from picking up a rock, even after explaining why not to bother these animals. One was even an avid birder who really should have known better.

Thanks for the compliment! I have to admit though, I needed to look up laudable to get it! :roll: . I have seen to many bad reactions driven by lack of information to snakes in the past. The show that these guys put on is sure to trigger an inappropriate reaction. My children also needed this lesson. It was a win win for everybody involved. Thanks again.

The "stuff" on that toad is nasty looking. Was there an injury underneath or just fungus growing on the skin?

Mike
Bold Cub
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Bold Cub »

I couldn't tell if there was an injury underneath the "fungus", I didn't want to spread it to any other animals I would encounter.
Paul White
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Re: Nice Black Eastern Hog in Sussex County, NJ

Post by Paul White »

/leave global chat...
I thought quitting WoW got rid of goldspammers!
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