Successful Southeast AZ trip

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regalringneck
Posts: 563
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:20 am

Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by regalringneck »

Good response CB, It's w/ a great deal of reticence that i respond and only obliquely to mtn-troll. Primarily it’s a response to our group.
Mtntroll is too cowardly to even sign its name. … I recommend the administrators compare "its" IP on all 4 posts & see what other screen names he uses… and “out” it/her for us : }
It appears “it” has a grasp of basic English and the ability to construct a written idea. This ability trends me away from my original suspect, but not completely, as his M/O is to use other people, much as he uses the serpents he “finds” in places (places where veritable armies of naturalists/university and other govt biologists have spent cumulative decades), and yet only HE … time and again scores the goal. Now what would O’ckham suggest is the simplest explanation for this unlikelihood?
Now im inclined to suspect our troll may have a LE connection (feeding tube), due to “its” control-freak tendencies. Recall the general need of conservation LE to demonize all things herp-related; as every police corporation needs a defined enemy (preferably several) to stay viable.
This forum was set in motion by the opportunity created when the fieldherping community tired of the heavy handed censorship on the original Tx site. Scott & John have been doing a stellar job of keeping that interference to an absolute minimum. What I suggest they (owners) and us as members be very intolerant of is trolls like this that obviously seek to throw their cyber-grenades from the bunkers of their anonymity. Of course if not just sport-trolling, a more sinister motivation is to recognize Its not in the control freaks interests to have a semi-organized bunch of citizens out there; attempt to divide & disrupt become the tactics. Which brings me full circle why we should vigilantly boot these trolls off this forum and to the PETA forums where they might be welcome.
What we should strive for (insist on?) is an ethic (since “ethics” seem to be a chic topic right now in the community), is if you have a beef w/ someones labor-intensive post, PM them your concerns…ahh… but then, you wouldn’t be able to get that smug satisfaction feedback loop that a public rebuke delivers eh? Much better to get your fix and decrease the rest of the eye candy the rest of us came here to see. Anyone ever think how many pix don’t get posted because of trolls like this?
The OP posted an excellent post, .. the kind that brings us here to the site. No doubt it, like every post could have been better … oh effing well! If you herp differently, wonderful, gopherit & have a gr8t life. John Gunn
AZMtnMn
Posts: 8
Joined: August 20th, 2013, 10:17 pm

Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by AZMtnMn »

Mr.Gunn,
You really are a piece of work! How can one such as you post anything regarding ethics? You start off angry at my original post and attack me (and I responded in turn, which I shouldn’t have but I thought it was funny and childish and wanted to play too) for it but say nothing of the ethics it was intended to address and then progress to libel through introducing a lie (fraudulent science, remember that?). I call you out for your lie and now I’m not only a troll for it but maybe law enforcement or part of a conspiracy to provide work for law enforcement and prevent herpers from organizing? Do you realize how insane the ideas you’re forwarding sound? I would hope others see you for what you are based on your words and actions here. You want the administrators to look into me because you falsely grasp at the idea I'm several people, you attribute lies to me (and likely whoever you thought I was), and you misrepresent the impetus and motivation for my participation and boil it down to you “losing eye candy?” It is people like you, sir, why I chose to start participating on this forum anonymously until I felt more comfortable. I’m glad I took that approach; I can only imagine what attack tactics you’d have employed or falsities you’d have tried to attach to me had you a name to work with. If you are representative of this community I will avoid posting here. Not because I think bullying through bad behavior and lies should be tolerated, but because of a fundamental difference between myself, what I thought was promoted by this site, and the reality of what is allowed to go on here.

The previous isn't meant to be a condemnation of everyone who posts here; I know there are good people with strong values and ethics as several have displayed but allowing dishonest people like Mr.Gunn to spout off the way he does causes my desire to become part of the group to quickly sour.
hellihooks
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by hellihooks »

I personally believe that setting Nafha's moderation/mediation default to Scott's fully public 'free speech' standards was a huge mistake. The simple fact of the matter is: Nafha, in it's attempt to 'unite with professionals' needs to maintain a higher level of communication than that of a fully public 'free-speech' paradigm, where emotional appeals and other logical fallacies are part and parcel of 'the right to express one's self'.
Scott's level of moderation/mediation is fine for FHF, and I'd go so far as to say essential for it's continued popularity and participation. Nafha, on the other hand, should moderate/mediate it's forums to a more 'professional standard' towards accomplishing it's goal of 'uniting with professionals'
Nafha is (again) in the midst of a major bylaws rewrite... and I hope that regaining our ability to moderate our forums is recognized as essential to our goals, and survival.
This is not aimed at anyone in particular... but rather an attempt to strike to the 'root of the (a) problem' and encourage Nafha members to become more involved in how we run our group. ;) jim
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Biker Dave
Posts: 2869
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 7:56 pm
Location: Wittmann,AZ

Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Biker Dave »

AZMtnMn

Perhaps the folks on this thread that you are attacking/educating (choose your own definition) may take you more seriously and less derisively if they knew who you were and what your background is. After all, it is the polite thing to do in polite circles to introduce yourself to a group you seek to interact with. If you choose not to let us know who you are and what your background is, that is your choice, but it may be better in that case to venture on to another forum for your argumentative jollies.

We do have a thread for introducing yourself, here is the link .... http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... ?f=4&t=289

We respectfully await your decision to introduce yourself!

Thank you

Dave Weber
AZ Chapter President
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azatrox
Posts: 793
Joined: June 9th, 2010, 6:51 am
Location: Arizona

Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by azatrox »

I doubt that anyone would take AzMtnMn "more seriously" if he/she were to identify himself/herself....He's/She's taken an unpopular position, and he's/she's even indicated as much when he/she first started posting here.

Regardless of his/her identity, he's/she's raised some valid points that I believe NAFHA has a vested interest in....One may question the manner in which he/she did so, but the fact remains that the issues brought forth are issues that any herp organization seeking legitimacy in a larger context needs to acknowledge and address.

Personally, I'd much rather someone be blunt and forthright with their concerns than coy and evasive. I'm not much for sugarcoating anything, and it's fairly apparent that AzMtnMn feels the same way.

I think the substantive content that was brought forth by this post has been addressed here...No need to take this thread any further IMO.

-Kris
hellihooks
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by hellihooks »

In the Ca chapter, our Chapter officers (including myself for like the last 5 years) have always insisted that any pics posted, that break any law, are removed in short order, to confirm the fact that we are doing our best to be 'law-abiding'. How that's done varies...sometimes by pm... sometimes if say, it's obviously an unintended offense (newb holding a SSC) we do it publicly, as both a teaching opportunity AND a reminder for all. We even promote what we call our 'gentleman agreements', by not posting what we consider 'problematic', if not actually illegal.... like no free-handling hots...no posting in season, etc.
We also try to discourage name calling and generally disrespectful 'flaming'. We're not perfect, but we try.
Not being from AZ and knowing AZ's laws... I went through Jason's post never realizing any laws had been broken, or even bent. When I go herping with out of state visitors... I make sure they know the local laws. Big ups to Kevin for accepting his share of 'the blame'.... and while there's a bit more of it (IMO) that could be passed around, it is also my opinion that the OP should be the 'least to blame'. He is highly regarded in the Ca Chapter, as a upstanding, law-abiding member, and one that I am proud to count as a Chapter Member. From what I can see... everything he did in AZ was good (buying a license to take photos, moving herps off the road, not giving snakes to collectors, etc) It was the AZ chapter (from top to bottom) that failed him. :?
I hope that if and when I'm 'chaperoned' by any AZ members, to see 'lifers' that I may not be able to find on my own, that more attention to my desire to herp lawfully, is respected. :roll:
That said... I still think this thread will produce positive results... :thumb:
As for AZMtnMn... my advice would be to try to keep him as a member... in my book, he sounds like Officer Material. :shock: ;) jim
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Brandon La Forest
Posts: 244
Joined: July 6th, 2010, 2:23 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Brandon La Forest »

Biker Dave wrote:Brandon

Maybe if you post more of these ^^^^ sort of pics we will see more of them! :lol: :lol: :lol:

lol touché!

Cheers

Brandon
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ratsnakehaven
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 9:08 am
Location: Southern Arizona

Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by ratsnakehaven »

AZMtnMn wrote:Terry Cox,

“Well, so far you've made 4 posts as AZMtnMn, and they've all been critical of someone.”

I thought post 4 was mainly giving credit to those who found the animals for their ability to reflect on the situation and learn from it.

“And, yet, you were able to have your say anyways. Have you thought of why I didn't question that?”

Until you brought it up, no; not in the light you paint it. Why would you question or be opposed to someone not wanting ‘compromised laws’ and poor etiquette to be displayed and go unchallenged on a public forum supporting an organization in which you choose to participate? Why should discouraging or asking about behaviors NAFHA opposes create conflict among forum members?

“Anyway, you sound young and somewhat naïve. Sure you have some points about the law and proper etiquette, etc, don't we all, but you fail to see a larger picture.”

Apparently “not all” have points about the law and proper etiquette or, if they do, we wouldn’t have known since the discussion didn't start until I took the unpopular position of saying something. I may be young and naïve, or maybe I’m old and speak from years of knowledge and a considerable foundation of experience but, if I’m missing the larger picture as you conclude, please educate me as to what it is and how I’m failing to see it. If I'm missing it I'm sure others are as well and wouldn't we all benefit from being able to see the larger picture?

“As members of this Chapter we have responsibility to also get along with each other.”

Does that responsibility extend to avoiding having the necessary discussions about proper respect of animals, habitats, or pointing out what shouldn’t be posted on public forums? You seem to be occupying counter positions simultaneously. Diplomacy has it's place but the benefits of directly addressing issues is often the better approach...though I'm sure that sounds idealistic, young and naïve.


Sorry I was gone again. I thought this thread was finished and was gone a lot this week.

AZMM (AZ MtnMan), are you sure you just want to discuss the laws and ethics protecting the snakes and other protected species? The bigger picture I was referring to was that these kinds of threads often scare folks away from wanting to post or to become members. If you want to discuss the laws and/or ethics, lets do just that. But your initial post was antagonistic towards the OP. I too had some problems with the post which I mentioned, but by the time I read everything, including your 1st post, not much more needed be said, imo.

What protected species were in photos in this thread....gila monster, willardi, lepidus, and pricei? How many among us haven't photographed a gila on the road. I didn't see your point there. The willardi I wasn't happy with, because they looked to have been manipulated. The lepidus and pricei could have been photoed in situ from what I looked at, but I probably didn't spend much time looking at those pics. I didn't see any snake sticks in the photos.

The law includes not manipulating protected species. However, in some cases it may be necessary in my opinion. For instance, while I was in Cochise Co. last week I came across a desert box turtle in the middle of the road. There was a car coming towards me and a car behind me. I stopped on the side of the road and ran out to pick up the turtle and move it to the side. Turn me in if you want, but I was showing care for the animal. We often see gila monsters in the road here in southern AZ. Sometimes I photo them and "shoo" them off the road, if I have time before a car comes. It's hard to find fault with people who find animals in the middle of the road.

I understand your concern about the mountain rattlesnakes, judging from your "handle," animals you're probably familiar with. I heard you when you said you weren't so concerned about the snakes as you were with other things. I think that means the habitat and the image we sometimes give of herpers. I agree, but considering the larger picture, I don't want to create unnecessary conflict. Herpers are what they are. They sometimes make mistakes. That's one reason we need education on these forums. At least the OP is not a collector or destroyer of things. I would have cut him a little slack and just discussed the fact that there were protected species involved, which shouldn't be manipulated. The worse problem, imo, are the people who come to AZ and collect illegally, or those folks who have no regard for the habitat of these animals or their needs.

The forum is a good place to discuss things and make some points, but this discussion has been destructive to the original thread. I hope this is the end of it. BTW, anyone can have Scott look at the strand to have any inappropriate posts removed to another forum, or whatever.

TC
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