Successful Southeast AZ trip

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Rothdigga
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Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Rothdigga »

Last year was the first time I visited SE Arizona. I went once in Aug and once in Sept and had a blast. I didn't find all the things I was looking for, but almost everything was new to me down there and of course that always leaves for more things to find in the future.
This year, I planned a work loop in Tucson and Phoenix to coincide with a new moon in hopes of good conditions. I also met up with Kevin Price in Tucson and although 2 people driving 2 separate cars isn't the most environmentally friendly way to travel, it was the only way as he was staying for an extra 4 days after I left.
On to the photos!
We started in the Tucson area the first day/night and worked our way East from there.
Gotta love this view from the mountains
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Santa Rita Mountains in Arizona by jrothdog, on Flickr

I'm guessing Kevin's landscape shot is better than mine
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Santa Rita Mountains in Arizona by jrothdog, on Flickr

First pass, first snake of the trip was this neonate Banded Rock Rattlesnake. A really good first find of the trip and the first one I have ever seen. I was stoked.
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Banded Rock Rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Banded Rock Rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus) by jrothdog, on Flickr

We saw some sketchy business going on while road cruising this road that night. I'm not a collector at all, but I do buy a license just to be legal and do my part. But we kept bumping into people with somewhat nefarious motives.
While shooting photos of this awesome little Tiger Rattlesnake below, a car with Texas plates approached and asked what we had. When we told them their first question was "Are you going to keep it?" Our answer of "no, of course not" was replied with "Cool. Can we have it? We're breeders from Texas" I guess the only thing I can commend them with is that they were honest about it instead of asking to shoot photos of it themselves and then just waiting us out so that they can take it. We simply replied that we were there only to shoot photos and wouldn't let them have it..."Cool, it's your snake, you found it so I guess that's your choice" was their reply.
So the rest of the night and trip somewhat I was constantly thinking about how I really needed to find everything I could before the scavengers found it. Of course that logic is insane since I was only there 1 night of the whole year and can't police the road myself, but I still felt my obligation to help out.
Sorry for the diatribe, here's the little Tiger...
Image
Tiger Rattlesnake (Crotalus tigris) by jrothdog, on Flickr

It was relatively damp out so we got to see a few toads the first night. This Couch's Spadefoot looked like he just rolled out of his burrow
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Couch's Spadefoot Toad (Scaphiopus couchii) by jrothdog, on Flickr

I've never found a Pyro before and was so stoked to see this on the road, but upon getting out we saw that it had just been hit before we got to it (in the head). Probably not a survivor. Cool looking snakes though.
Image
Sonoran Mountain Kingsnake (Lampropeltis pyromelana) by jrothdog, on Flickr

Shortly after that, they took us to a dependable spot for Lepidus and voila!
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Banded Rock Rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus) by jrothdog, on Flickr

The area was unbelievably stunning.
Image
Huachuca Mountains looking towards Mexico by jrothdog, on Flickr

Night cruising that night was further out east towards Portal. First thing we found was this very ornery WDB. I rarely find these guys not just totally pissed off at life. When we found this snake it was on the road, so we moved it off. There was a patch of grass running the entire length of the road about 2 ft high but only maybe 6 inches wide. Somehow this snake hid totally out of sight from us for about 5 minutes directly in front of us after we moved it. It was amazing since we knew exactly where it was, but couldn't find it.
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Western Diamondback Rattlesnake (Crotalus Atrox) by jrothdog, on Flickr

It was a little dry out but toads were still cruising. This Red-Spotted Toad was lurking
Image
Red Spotted Toad (Bufo punctatus) by jrothdog, on Flickr
as was this Great Plains Toad. I believe this was a first for me as I had never been that far east to herp to see them
Image
Great Plains Toad (Bufo cognatus) by jrothdog, on Flickr
Mexican Spadefoots were pretty numerous out there. Very cool looking toads
Image
Mexican Spadefoot Toad (Spea multiplicata) by jrothdog, on Flickr
I was super stoked to find (and save) this Desert Box Turtle from the road the next morning. We'll be filling out the paperwork for that turtle study that Dave posted up on the forjum a while back. I believe Kevin saw 2-3 more after I left.
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Desert Box Turtle (Terrapene ornata ornata) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Desert Box Turtle (Terrapene ornata ornata) by jrothdog, on Flickr

We took a nice, long drive on a dirt road the following day. Ideally we were planning on making it into New Mexico to hike around, but we got sidetracked from some of our finds.
A stop and hike around scored us this cool Regal Horned Lizard
Image
Round-Tailed Horned Lizard (Phrynosoma (Doliosaurus) modestum) by jrothdog, on Flickr
Ornate Tree Lizard? Man, I suck at these ID's
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Ornate Tree Lizard (Urosaurus ornatus) by jrothdog, on Flickr

Up ahead on the road I saw something black in the middle of the road. As we had passed numerous tire pieces I just assumed it was another until I saw it was moving. Gila! I yelled. Both of us were really looking forward to finding a Gila on our own and we were rewarded.
Kevin getting a good look
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Reticulated Gila Monster (Heloderma suspectum suspectum) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Reticulated Gila Monster (Heloderma suspectum suspectum) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Reticulated Gila Monster (Heloderma suspectum suspectum) by jrothdog, on Flickr
Gila overload for you all, but it was too cool
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Reticulated Gila Monster (Heloderma suspectum suspectum) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Reticulated Gila Monster (Heloderma suspectum suspectum) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Reticulated Gila Monster (Heloderma suspectum suspectum)Reticulated Gila Monster (Heloderma suspectum suspectum) by jrothdog, on Flickr
Here he was as he made his way into the bushes
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Reticulated Gila Monster (Heloderma suspectum suspectum) by jrothdog, on Flickr

We checked out some roadside ponds and saw tons and tons of tadpoles in this one. Along with some crazy tiny horseshoe looking crab-type things.
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Roadside Pond with tadpoles by jrothdog, on Flickr
Kevin found this Eastern Patchnose while we hiked just over the New Mexico border.
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Eastern Patchnose Snake (Salvadora grahamiae) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Kevin shooting the Eastern Patchnose Snake (Salvadora grahamiae) by jrothdog, on Flickr

As we were driving down the road, I drove over a stick. After passing it about 100ft I stopped and decided to go back and check that stick out. The stick ended up having a cool orange belly and became a Ring-necked Snake
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Ring-necked Snake (Diadophis punctatus) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Ring-necked Snake (Diadophis punctatus) by jrothdog, on Flickr

I didn't really have a whole lot of bird luck on this trip. I wasn't totally looking as we were driving more than hiking, but I did score this cool Montezuma Quail.
Image
Montezuma Quail (Cyrtonyx montezumae) by jrothdog, on Flickr

On the way back the sky was looking insanely awesome
Image
Sonoran Desert near Peloncillo Mountains by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Sonoran Desert near Peloncillo Mountains by jrothdog, on Flickr

We saw way more juvenile and neonate rattlesnakes than adults.
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Mojave Rattlesnake (Crotalus Scutulatus) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Mojave Rattlesnake (Crotalus scutulatus) by jrothdog, on Flickr

Another cool looking Mexican Spadefoot
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Mexican Spadefoot Toad (Spea multiplicata) by jrothdog, on Flickr

I think everyone is familiar with this sight, but it was the first time for me. Very dramatic scenery in the Huachuca's.
Image
Chiricahua Mountains by jrothdog, on Flickr

We hiked this talus slope in hopes of scoring a hat trick on Montane's for the trip but it was not to be. It is HARD hiking these things. I've backpacked on larger slopes before but these smaller rocks kind of suck.
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Chiricahua Mountains Talus Slope by jrothdog, on Flickr

While looking for snakes I did find a buddy. I think this is a White-throated Woodrat. He really wanted to be pals with me and decided it would be cool to chew on my boots as well...
Image
white-throated woodrat (Neotoma albigula) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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white-throated woodrat (Neotoma albigula) by jrothdog, on Flickr
I decided against picking up a strain of the Hantavirus and moved on.
Yarrow's Spiny Lizard and twin-spot rattlesnake food
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Yarrow's Spiny Lizard (Sceloporus jarrovii) by jrothdog, on Flickr

While cruising down the mountain we passed a US Forest Truck. He stopped me and said I would soon be passing a truck up ahead that was stuck and about to fall off the mountain. He explained that he was going back to get 2 tow trucks and told me NOT to try to help this guy. All I could think was "How do you get your car stuck on this wide forest road".
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Bummer for this guy... by jrothdog, on Flickr
When we got to it, this old Texas guy who was driving explained that he swerved to dodge a deer or something (I didn't hear what it was) and overcompensated only to fishtail out and almost all the way down the mountain. The only thing holding it on there was a burned out old stump that was cracking.

I had one last hike to try with Kevin to find some Banded Rocks of our own before I was going to head to Phoenix that night.
Sonoran Spotted Whiptail (i think)
Image
Sonoran Spotted Whiptail (Aspidoscelis sonorae) by jrothdog, on Flickr

We walked the trail all the way down and didn't find anything. On the way back I stopped and got my camera pack off so that I could hike the steep rock pile on the trail. Well, I didn't actually need to hike it because this Banded Rock was out basking right next to Kevin and buzzed him. Score!
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Banded Rock Rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Banded Rock Rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus) by jrothdog, on Flickr
This snake was large, much larger than the adult we had seen in the other mountain range.
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Banded Rock Rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus) by jrothdog, on Flickr
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Banded Rock Rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus) by jrothdog, on Flickr
Habitat shot
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Banded Rock Rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus) by jrothdog, on Flickr
As it made it's way back into the rocks, I shot this just to show how insane their coloration matches the lichen and rocks.
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Banded Rock Rattlesnake (Crotalus lepidus) by jrothdog, on Flickr

On my drive back to Phoenix I saw tons and tons of toads. I stopped and shot the 4 species I saw and moved a ton off the road without shooting.
I'm sure Kevin will either add to this or have a separate post with some of this along with the additional things he saw after I left. I'm already trying to squeeze in 1 more quick trip out there before all the fun winds down for another year. Thanks AZ. I'll be back.
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R3dguitarist
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by R3dguitarist »

Very nice photography! I long to go on an out of state trip sometime to do some desert-ish herping. I especially love the colors on that last banded rock, very gorgeous! Again, great finds mate!
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Rothdigga
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Rothdigga »

Banded Rocks were really what I wanted to see/shoot the most while I was there. I was stoked to get to see 3 of them.
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Norman D
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Norman D »

Nice collection of photos and glad you had a great time! Love the tiger, the nice big last klaub, and the dark gila! Thanks for sharing
Rothdigga wrote: Night cruising that night was further out east towards Portal. First thing we found was this very ornery WDB. I rarely find these guys not just totally pissed off at life. When we found this snake it was on the road, so we moved it off.
Your reasoning for finding ornery WDBs is in your paragraph. Atrox are often deemed as ornery and pissy animals, but they are just being defensive as they are vulnerable while on the crawl. When hiking and finding them in-situ... they rarely ever rattle and tend to be "placid" animals.
Rothdigga wrote: I think everyone is familiar with this sight, but it was the first time for me. Very dramatic scenery in the Huachuca's.
Image
Chiricahua Mountains by jrothdog, on Flickr
Those look like the Cheery Cows (Chiricahuas) to me!
Rothdigga wrote: A stop and hike around scored us this cool Round-tailed Horned Lizard
Image
Definately not a Round-tailed Horned Lizards..... more like a Regal Horned Lizard (Phrynosoma solare)
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Rothdigga
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Rothdigga »

Thanks Norman. I corrected the ID on that lizard. Stoked you liked the photos. I've hiked a few Atrox and they've all buzzed me and been pretty pissed as well, but they were all out on the move so vulnerable also.
WW**
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by WW** »

Great photos, happy memories!

It's very depressing to hear that the willardi spots are being hit so hard...

One ID correction: both those juvenile rattlers from the Peloncilllos area are Mohaves, including the one labelled as a WDB.
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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

WW** wrote:Great photos, happy memories!
Same here ;)

What a fantastic willardi find!
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DesertZone
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by DesertZone »

Thanks for sharing, that banded rock was awesome. 8-)
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azatrox
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by azatrox »

Looks like you had a good trip.

Love all the black on that Gila...

The area where you saw the willardi with neonates gets hit HARD....When I'm there I spend half my time putting rocks back where they were, knowing full well that the next weekend the place will get thrashed again by people that just flat out don't care. For the life of me I don't understand why people think they need to flip rocks to find willardi....or why people will see one dive and proceed to dig out the entire hillside to try to get to it. :x

And yes, your young "Peloncillo atrox" are actually scutulatus...

- Kris
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Rothdigga
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Rothdigga »

Thanks Kris and WW on the ID's, corrected.
I can see that if I lived near there I would probably spend more time fixing torn up rocks than finding snakes I'm sure of it.
Geqqo
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Geqqo »

Wow, you did great man. its obvious from the guy you saw whose truck was leaning off the road that we just missed each other. That was the first day of our trip and we were on our way up when some firefighters told us it could be awhile. We soon came upon the scene and waited about 20 minutes as the tow truck tried various ways to pull up the truck. While waiting the sheriffs revealed to us what they knew of the incident. We were told in so many words that he was a birder not paying attention to the road, then looked at the road and saw a few sticks with >1 inch diameter, swerved, skidded out and almost ended up toast if it were not for the burned out oak that perfectly caught him before he could tumble 300 feet to his death. Pretty lucky dude.
Congrats on the willardi babes they are awesome. I am not aware of the famous area (although I have a good idea thanks to some literature that seem to spill the beans a bit too much for my liking) nor does it sound like i would enjoy seeing how other people treat the area. Just as well, I am quite the loner and explorer and fan of getting lost and dislike asking for help in all aspects of my life. I especially like how you wanted to hike out a lepidus as i am not much of a road cruiser and find hiking animals a hundred times more enjoyable, that one is a stunner. We had a pretty great time ourselves over ten days of primitive camping in four different ranges, though I am also jealous of the boxies and have never seen such a black gila. Thanks for taking the time to post this.

Dan
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Rothdigga
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Rothdigga »

Dan,
Thanks for checking it out. I really wanted to have someone show me a Willard simply so that I can know visually what habitat to look at. As much as I read about it and all, I sometimes need the actual in person visual to get an understanding of what I'm looking for if that makes sense.
Finding the Lepidus out and about is so much more gratifying than road cruising as is anything. Road cruising is sort of the easy way out sometimes and when you are in habitat like that, you simply can't hike a vertical mountain at night either.

That makes more sense about how that guy went off the road. The forest ranger was pretty bummed that he had to go and handle it. The guy was pretty stoney too, old Willie Nelson lookin dude who may or may not have been blazed out of his mind while out bird watching. I wasn't entirely convinced that they would get it out but I'm glad they did.
Geqqo
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Geqqo »

Haha, I didn't talk to the guy but I did notice he was decked out in quite an outfit, sort of Irwinish, head to toe khaki. His car was not drivable, looked like the front axle bent quite a bit when they got it out, and I am sure it all cost him a pretty penny.

Dan
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Kevin Price
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Kevin Price »

Funny thing about that guy, I saw him in the Sunny Flats campground several days later driving through. I talked to him and told him that we had spoken with him that day on the road. He said the tow cost him about $840.00 and another $450.00 on transmission work due to the "offroading". While talking to him his radiator, or something connected with it, was leaking onto the ground. He said he'd just deal with it the next day. He was kinda nutty.
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MarcLinsalata
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by MarcLinsalata »

Kevin Price wrote:Funny thing about that guy, I saw him in the Sunny Flats campground several days later driving through. I talked to him and told him that we had spoken with him that day on the road. He said the tow cost him about $840.00 and another $450.00 on transmission work due to the "offroading". While talking to him his radiator, or something connected with it, was leaking onto the ground. He said he'd just deal with it the next day. He was kinda nutty.
Sounds like me in twenty years - hopefully a stump doesn't catch me though and maybe I can even spot a snake or two out of my window as I plummet to my demise........
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regalringneck
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by regalringneck »

Dang, nice post :} whats not to love, all the herps, but that packrat was adorable; brought back memories of my little sarah; "breast feeding" her new packrat puppy (Mc-n-d's coffee cream) haha; and the moctezuma quail struting 4the camera brought back other wonderful memories on the frontera w/my brittanies...
Just want to posit tho., since you riled up some of the good folks, and possibly a few wardens w/ your comments; obviously by your observations, and certainly by ours as well, the willards are doing very well, despite the dozen or so vehicles looking for them & their squamate kin, on any monsoon weekend! There are many many square miles of suitable habitat that dont see a soul.
The rangers are doing a good job too, on a recent adventure, we saw 1 officer for every willards (2)., mtn buzztails were by 2:1 the most common serpents we encountered!
I suggest the quiet fate of your beautiful pyro is what ought to get us commenting, perhaps incensed, what a waste. How about some "slow down & see small wildlife" signs on these back-country byways for crying out loud ?
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Rothdigga
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Rothdigga »

Regal...
Stoked that I was able to spark some good memories for you.
We ran into 1 officer on an NWR and spoke with him at length for about 2 hours. We had actually seen even more sketchyness that I didn't bring up earlier (someone with a Gila in their possesion). But he was only present on the NWR when we were there and we didn't see any others while out on the roads. Good to know they're pretty well present out there when you go. I fully realize that most of those collectors are actually going to hit the easiest places the hardest and probably aren't hitting the further out spots at all.
He also gave us the scoop on that guy who was found dead with the 2 Willards in his backpack...died of a heart attack while hiking.
The Pyro was a heartbreaker. Whenever you come up on a fresh hit it's that much more frustrating because if you were just there a moment before...damn!
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Biker Dave
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Biker Dave »

Great stuff! Good photos and good story.

Whats the difference between birders and herpers?

Herpers don't run over birds!

Dave
AZMtnMn
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by AZMtnMn »

Did you do the right thing when you saw the guy with the Gila and report him? If not, why?

Curious, what was your thought process for posing with handling equipment with an obviously placed lepidus in the middle of your circle?

If you cite that you felt by just removing the rock you were disturbing the snake than why did you take things further by catching the mother and remaining baby so you could relocate them elsewhere for photos?

You state you bought a license so I would guess, especially since you were accompanied by your "homie" who lives in AZ, that you were fully aware and knowledgeable about the laws. Just makes me wonder why you so brazenly flaunt your disregard for the law on a public forum.

You're registration date indicates you've been part of this forum since 2010; can you really say you didn't know to act more appropriately or, at least, make smarter decisions about how you chose to display your actions on a public forum?

Don't you think it's hypocritical to bust some guys balls from Texas, no matter how deserved, for wanting to collect animals, which he may have well been within his rights to do if he had purchased the necessary license, while you flagrantly display your disregard for following the laws?

I'm not concerned about the populations of willardi and lepidus in AZ; they'll be fine. The spots that are well known, while unfortunate, are the sacrificial lambs there to be slaughtered by the irresponsible. However, the bad decisions displayed in your post really make me wonder what your thought process is and if you just don't care how your actions reflect on the herp community at large. Care to elaborate?

You've largely been given a 'free pass' by users of this forum instead of appropriately chided for your actions. That's surprising and disappointing. People in the herp community speak frequently about educating and 'policing our own' - obviously lip service? If NAFHA and its members want to be taken seriously and cast aside the stereotypes held by many, in both the herp community and law enforcement, contribute to the management of native herps, work with regulatory agencies and academia, and foster positive relations with law enforcement and law abiding citizens, publicly displayed actions such as yours cannot be condoned and should be condemned by the leadership.

The actions are yours but they reflect, by extension, on the community of which you are a part of.
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regalringneck
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by regalringneck »

.. yoe "mtnboy", hope it was worth the hassle of signing up to type such a stupid 1st post. We'll take as many non-resident herpers like the OP as we can get thankyou very much, Tx loss can be Az's gain :p
Last year we had a group of us sitting in a similar circle (shooting a willard) when a 2nd specimen crawled in to join the photoshoot, thus what a nerve you have just to pop in here and accuse someone of a crime.
Theres a smell too that permeates your post, reminds me of a puked up mouse ... l8tr/h8tr; John Gunn
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lateralis
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by lateralis »

So when I originally saw this post, I too wondered about flipping a brood of Willard's and the obvious disturbance that the action caused, likewise with the Lepidus and the hooks in the frame . Now a few weeks ago I found a few Willard's and simply took photos as they went about their business I also flipped a Lepidus and was able to get my voucher photo w/o much trouble but then tin is not a rock. I don't see a horrible crime here Mtnmn, I do see some poor field etiquette but we ALL had some issues in the beginning I suspect. As a plank member of FHF and NAFHA I have seen a trend develop in which people try to take Nat Geo quality photos for this site and try to compete with a few folks here who take staged shots in the field. Those picture book photos are just that...fantasy and not depicting the true field experience, were the majority of pictures really in situ there would be a lot less eye candy on this site.

I would ask you Mtnmn, are you a member of NAFHA or FHF? If not why? You sound intelligent and informed. Instead of slamming the OP offer constructive critique, remember the old saying " If you're not part of the solution...."
Btw all members have a 2010 birthday that's when the great crash occurred.

The issue with the Gila....hmmmm that's a bummer can we expand on this OP?
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azatrox
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by azatrox »

AzMtnMn brings up some valid concerns IMO. With regard to the klaub photo, regardless of anything else, AzG&F considers any molestation of any closed season species unlawful without permit or permission…So unless these guys had a permit or permission from AzG&F to manipulate this animal for photos, then technically doing so would be unlawful. Now, I’m not naïve enough to imply that doing so necessarily does any tangible damage, and nor am I under the mistaken impression that this type of activity is not done hundreds (if not thousands) of times a year by herpers (both in state and out)….

I think the primary issue with regard to this photo was the fact that it was thrown up on a public forum in multiple places, in full view and subject to public scrutiny by anyone who happens to mosey on over and look. If AzG&F were so inclined, proving that a closed season species was “pursued and/or molested” wouldn’t be difficult at all. This doesn’t help the cause for herpers in general when we profess to be law abiding, responsible outdoor enthusiasts.

With regard to the willardi shots, in my opinion this is a whole different ball of wax….It’s one thing to flip a rock and discover a female with neonates underneath (although why one is flipping rocks during birthing season in proven areas where females drop their young is unknown)…But assuming one didn’t know there was a female with neos under the rock prior to flipping it, sometimes this happens. Had a couple shots been taken and the rock replaced exactly as found I think any damage would have been minimal. But it certainly appears that both the mother and a neo were manipulated for photos. Why such manipulation was necessary is unclear, but compounding the rock flipping with manual manipulation can’t be good for either the snakes or the herping community’s reputation.

If I locate a female with neos, I never mess with them at all. If I can get in situ shots without disturbance, then fantastic…Otherwise I’d rather not get any shots at all and at least maintain the chances that that female will continue to use that site for birthing in the future. Disturbing the site AND pulling animals out for photos is a sure fire way to ensure that snakes will locate alternative (perhaps less ideal) locations to drop babies next time.

To be clear, I wasn’t there when these photos were taken…I’m not accusing anyone of doing anything other than what is depicted through visual evidence in the photos…In no way is this intended as a personal attack or indictment towards the OP or anyone. That said, the question must be asked: If you knew that disturbing the mother and babies for photos would cause the animals to use alternate sites for birthing (and if left alone they would continue to use the same site), would you still continue? If the answer is no, then consider it a lesson learned and move on…You now know what not to do next time. If the answer is yes, then I’d wager that you care more about your pictures and your appearance within the rest of the community than you do about the welfare of the animals. As such, I sincerely hope the answer is the former and not the latter.

-Kris
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by AZMtnMn »

Gunn…Haha, bang bang, shoots himself in the foot with a fusillade of indefensible denial. Stupid post? Is that what you call an assessment that’s right ‘on target?’

BTW, that smell you speak of – change your diaper, you’ve crapped yourself again, old man.


Lateralis,
I understand wanting to take nice pictures; sharing obvious pictorial disregard of the law I do not. Is there good reason to include pictures that can be easily omitted without changing the quality of the post? Unfortunate though it is, most in the herp community agree actions of a few are used to judge many no matter if the law disregarded is major or minor, horrible crime or not. Do you disagree? Whether I approached this thread through constructive criticism, which I notice others failed to provide, or the Socratic route taken the end result is the same: pointing out the obvious poor field etiquette you reference and the ensuing poor decision making azatrox elaborates on. Either option would not be popular. I prefer questions; questions are generally more effective at stimulating thought than lecturing, a.k.a. constructive criticism. Asking questions hoping people will read them and think I see being part of the solution, as well as not turning a blind eye and condoning detrimental activity to this hobby through silence. You mention people having issues in the beginning; I agree. That beckons the question, can the poster be considered as “beginning” if he’s been participating on and receiving education on this site since 2010, possibly earlier? Do you truly feel the beginner designation applies in this instance?

I just registered for FHF and old fashioned in that I use established collections at universities or museums when I have records and specimens to submit. Publicly maintained and curated collections I view as more stable and trustworthy compared with private individuals amassing the data of others no matter how laudable the motivation or credible the individuals.
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Ya know. We've been here before, lots of times. If I were to have come on just after you posted (mtn man), I would have been right in the middle of it. Sometimes we let things work themselves out without interfering. If I thought the OP or you had posted in very poor taste, I probably would have the post removed. In truth I didn't especially like the part of the post about the willardi, but there's lots of things I could find fault with if I was so inclined. Possibly, they moved the rock not knowing it would uncover a mother and litter, and not wanting to hurt the snakes didn't put the rock back right away. Can't say I haven't done that. There's things I like about the post and things I don't. The fact that no one else said anything derogatory indicates that most liked the post. I can find something to complain about with almost every post that goes up on this forum or any other, but that's not always the way we operate. What we generally say is; don't give away sensitive locations or any sensitive information, especially involving protected species; don't give the name of roads you're cruising; and try to post your photos and stories well after the actual time you were here, especially if it would encourage folks to rush out to the places you were. Obviously the OP is a little new to posting on this forum and I'm sure will learn from the experience. Also, I'd rather have folks being "up front," so to speak, rather than not wanting to be a part of things.

Cheers....TC :crazyeyes:
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azatrox
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by azatrox »

Terry,

Granted, no one other than those that were there know the circumstances surrounding the mother willardi with her neonates under the rock…It’s quite possible (even likely) that those there had no idea they’d flip a willardi and neonates before it was done. While I don’t think for a second that there was any foul intent on the part of anyone that was there (as evidenced by the rest of the post generally expressing concern for native wildlife), I do have to question the wisdom of flipping rocks during the birthing season in an area well known to have a stable population of willardi. Willardi aren’t boas or zonata…you don’t have to flip anything to see them. One can see them on a regular basis simply by being in appropriate habitats at appropriate times. Knowing this, by NOT flipping one greatly reduces the likelihood that one will unintentionally disturb a mom and babies…

Maybe the OP didn’t know this…Maybe the OP doesn’t have extensive Az experience…I really don’t know. I think it’s fairly obvious at this point that the OP is well aware of this now, so hopefully behavior can be amended in the future.

There's things I like about the post and things I don't. The fact that no one else said anything derogatory indicates that most liked the post.

But it’s not about what we “like” and what we don’t. It’s about reinforcing the image that we’re seeking to portray through our behavior. We can’t very well hope to be seen as law abiding, respectful wildlife enthusiasts if we blatantly publish evidence that we’re not for public purview. That’s the issue. The assumption that most liked the post because they didn’t critique it doesn’t indicate that people didn’t take issue with it. It only indicates that they didn’t publicly take issue with it. One cannot make a valid assumption because of something that DIDN’T happen…It’s like trying to prove a negative. Perhaps people DID take issue with it, but haven’t had the time yet to express it publicly…Perhaps people took issue with it, but communicated said issues via PM…The point is, just because there’s not a “flame war” going on doesn’t mean that everything is hunky-dory.

Some may see this whole dialogue as unnecessary…Personally, I feel it’s necessary because for an organization like NAFHA that is constantly trying to gain legitimacy and recognition, commentary like this speaks straight to the reputation that NAFHA wants to portray and is currently portraying to the outside world. As such, it’s important to critically discuss issues as they arise. While I’m pleased that thus far such discussion has remained civil and “above the fray” (for the most part), if NAFHA wants to be seen as a reputable organization by those outside it then healthy discourse like this is essential to that goal.

-Kris
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Jimi »

Happy as a clam there isn't a flame-out over this topic. Also appreciate Kris' last post, I'm in full agreement.

Also this from lateralis - I couldn't agree more, and I'm not happy about it:
I have seen a trend develop in which people try to take Nat Geo quality photos for this site and try to compete with a few folks here who take staged shots in the field. Those picture book photos are just that...fantasy and not depicting the true field experience, were the majority of pictures really in situ there would be a lot less eye candy on this site.
I've brought up this issue of "the pursuit of good photos trumping good behavior and good sense" twice in the last couple weeks (other sub-forums) and it went nowhere. But I'm glad to see I'm not the only one feeling this way.

For emphasis I'll just quote Kris here:
if NAFHA wants to be seen as a reputable organization by those outside it then healthy discourse like this is essential to that goal.
I would generalize that to individual herpers too. Not just NAFHA. (For any impressionable non-members/lurkers.)

cheers,
Jimi
AZMtnMn
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by AZMtnMn »

I need not address the points azatrox covered so well. I will touch on,

“We've been here before, lots of times.”

Don’t you see this as a problem and all the more reason to speak out when you see such activity? Behavior left uncorrected is behavior that becomes accepted. Do you find behaviors violating laws testified through provided imagery acceptable because of the appearance of popularity? Thing is, as a moderator, you shouldn’t have had to wait for me or anyone else to post; you should have immediately spoken up and ensured NAFHA’s position was well known to be in opposition of the behavior displayed on a NAFHA forum. Isn’t that part of the responsibility of being a moderator? I’m not saying this to impugn or attack you, I’m sure being a moderator is a thankless job, but moderators are the first line of defense in assuring undeserved negatives do not get attached to the site, forum, or subforum or the entities they support when actions or behavior not in line with the hosting site or entity is published for public consumption. I’m well aware not everyone appreciates when one takes such a stance; look at how I was ‘Gunned’ down by broaching the subject. Being a moderator and member of the community I’d think you’d have the support of the community you serve and the reception you received would likely have been more pleasant – no ‘shooting’ of the messenger.
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Rothdigga »

Offending photos have been removed...
I'll address a few points without turning this into one of those firestorm posts that I've seen in the past.
I really was trying to follow the etiquette that I've seen on the forum in the past, much like Terry said. No locality descriptions although I did jump the gun on posting in season (although there was at least 1-2 posts before mine showing montane species, hence my thinking it was OK by now).
The willard find was not mine, but rather a find of the group I was with and I was allowed to shoot photos of their find. I'm not going to go into a big description of exactly blow for blow what happend, but much care was taken to disturb the spot as little as possible. I realize now that any disturbance is way too much, so lesson learned and in the future I will know this. I didn't even know prior to this that you could find them by flipping (nor was I versed enough to know it was breeding season, but I am now). Because pretty much every photo I've ever seen of one (most if not all on this forum) have been a nicely placed individual on a perfect stump or log. Therefore I thought my find was in line with what had been posted numerous times on here in the past.
I do feel like the original criticism assumed that I was in the same boat as the folks who scour the roads picking up everything they find, and destroy hillsides (which I was repairing others' damage along the way while hiking) simply for trying to shoot quality photos. You do realize that I'm on the same side of the fence as you, right? I may need a small amount of guideance as to further lessening my stamp where I go, but I'm about as "hands off" as it comes. I move things off the road as necessary when I find it but in general, I try to shoot as much in-situ as possible.
I got into herping in 2009 as a way to expand my photography and have been into it heavily since. I feel like somehow it's now bad to want to shoot quality photos? That's the fun I get out of herping much like many, many others on this site. I'm not just going out so I can check off a list of things I find, I want to shoot quality photos of them for my and other's enjoyment.
I appreciate Terry, Kris, Regal and others civil criticism on this.
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azatrox
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by azatrox »

Rothdigga,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying wildlife and/or taking awesome photos. I hope you don't think that that was the aim of the criticism. Rest assured (that from my perspective anyway) the criticism was not personal...It is criticism that would have been levied @ anyone who had posted similar photos.

Sounds like you learned a few things here, and that's important. I don't think anyone thinks you're out there ripping up hillsides and poaching willardi or klaubs. There's certainly no evidence that that is the case. I imagine that if that were the perception, you would have seen this thread take a decidedly different turn. Again, I'm not questioning the intent...

Just questioning the (unintended) consequences of the action.

-Kris
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Kevin Price
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Kevin Price »

I’ve been following this thread with mixed feelings, having been one of the offenders. With regards to some of the behavior shown here I’ve come to realize that I was wrong and actually should have known better. I have been herping since the 60’s as a kid, but I really got into when I was shown how to road cruise in 1980. I’ve been doing this long enough to have gone through the various “stages” through the years I think most of us go through; keeping everything you find; doing whatever it takes to find the species you’re after with no regard for the habitat or the animals well-being; being obsessed with finding everything in a given area; and then to having a more mature outlook and a realization that your actions can have consequences that reach far into the future. Not unlike Dr. Kubler-Ross’s five stages of grief. That kind of thinking comes with experience and maturity as we age (hopefully).

The reason I joined NAFHA and this forum was to do more and be more than just someone who goes out and finds herps. I wanted to contribute, albeit in a small way, by doing what I could to represent NAFHA as a whole, and hopefully educate other herpers I may meet up with who exhibit some of the behavior listed above, and to those who could teach me a thing or two. To that end I have done some of that through my photos. I’ve taken groups on photo tours and outings in my area, all with respect to the animals and their environment. Almost to a person they have said similar things like “I just thought you went out and shot snakes, I didn’t know you cared so much and you actually showed me how beautiful snakes and reptiles can be”. That goes a long way with educating the public and the people those individuals know.

Having said that, my actions with the willardi were wrong. I can only speak for myself. As Rothdigga pointed out, we didn’t find the rock or the snakes, yet I did participate in the exploitation of the snakes by photographing them the way I did. No matter how careful we were with them, merely moving them was wrong.
If you knew that disturbing the mother and babies for photos would cause the animals to use alternate sites for birthing (and if left alone they would continue to use the same site), would you still continue? If the answer is no, then consider it a lesson learned and move on.
Kris, at the time I never even considered that. I apologize. I was so caught up in actually seeing them, I suspended my better judgment for the sake of photographing the animal. Unlike others here, I DON”T know the appropriate habitats or the appropriate times. It’s not an excuse, merely an explanation. I went back to that same location a week later and it was destroyed. Every rock was overturned and left out of place. That to me is far more reprehensible than photographing the animals. That’s long term devastation. But we don’t know who it was that did that, so the only recourse is to criticize bad behavior with those whom you can identify it with, such as me and Rothdigga. Ok, I’ll take the hit. Having read some of the comments here, it got me to look at my actions in a different light. As my father would say ' The best way to learn is through negative reinforcement'. Actually he had that tattooed on the back of his hand. I'm kidding, but I do get the point.

You live and learn. I learned something through this and will apply it in the future. That’s also what this forum is about correct? I appreciate the civility expressed in this thread having read far worse in others on this forum with a much less incendiary topic. We all need a check every once in a while, consider this mine. For those who still hate, or have issues with my behavior, my name is right there for all to see and not hidden behind an internet pseudonym.
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Rothdigga »

azatrox wrote:Rothdigga,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying wildlife and/or taking awesome photos. I hope you don't think that that was the aim of the criticism. Rest assured (that from my perspective anyway) the criticism was not personal...It is criticism that would have been levied @ anyone who had posted similar photos.

Sounds like you learned a few things here, and that's important. I don't think anyone thinks you're out there ripping up hillsides and poaching willardi or klaubs. There's certainly no evidence that that is the case. I imagine that if that were the perception, you would have seen this thread take a decidedly different turn. Again, I'm not questioning the intent...

Just questioning the (unintended) consequences of the action.

-Kris
Thanks Kris for the replies. I wasn't referring to your post at all. I feel like AzMtnMn came in a little hot in his first critique and just lumped me in with people who are obviously trying to capitalize on AZ wildlife while I'm merely out to observe and shoot photos. I paid full attention to what you, Terry and the other longtime AZ posters have to say and take the advice seriously. No need to beat a dead horse here and I do appreciate civil discussion on the matter. Thanks.
Jason
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Post by craigb »

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azatrox
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by azatrox »

Kevin and Jason,

Big props to both of you. Would have been very easy to come off as defensive as the issues and questions that both myself and AzMtnMn posed weren't exactly easy to answer. It takes a mature person to stand up and admit publicly when they've made a mistake and both you guys did that, so you've earned respect in my book. I've had to do it too (I think we all have at one point or another, and it sure as hell ain't easy.)

I’ve been doing this long enough to have gone through the various “stages” through the years I think most of us go through; keeping everything you find; doing whatever it takes to find the species you’re after with no regard for the habitat or the animals well-being; being obsessed with finding everything in a given area; and then to having a more mature outlook and a realization that your actions can have consequences that reach far into the future. Not unlike Dr. Kubler-Ross’s five stages of grief. That kind of thinking comes with experience and maturity as we age (hopefully).

Truer words were never spoken...I think most of us have gone through every single one of these stages. I know I have. Responsible naturalists that care about and respect the environment just don't magically appear...It's a learning process and along the way everyone is bound to make mistakes.

I went back to that same location a week later and it was destroyed. Every rock was overturned and left out of place. That to me is far more reprehensible than photographing the animals. That’s long term devastation. But we don’t know who it was that did that...

I agree 110%! Sickens me to hear that. People either don't understand (or flat out don't care) that once a birthing site is destroyed like that, it'll likely NEVER get used again. Instead, the snakes will have to seek out less ideal sites and in the process expose themselves to even more survival pressures. Just ONCE I'd like to witness someone doing something like this!!! :x

You live and learn.

Indeed. My hope is that we all do.

No need to beat a dead horse here and I do appreciate civil discussion on the matter. Thanks.

Once again, agreed. I for one appreciate how both you guys have taken the critique. All too often things turn into a "flame war" because people are too busy trying to prove their "side" right and not listening to what the other side is saying. When we talk about living and learning, I know quite a few people that could learn a thing or two from the way both of you guys approached this issue. Well done. I believe that we all are at once students AND teachers. :)

Happy herping guys!

-Kris
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by AZMtnMn »

There was no intimation or assertion you were collecting everything, or even anything; the criticism focused solely on the images and words presented and specifically addressed the implication of the actions and how they reflect on us all. You caught the brunt of the criticism because you posted the images but everyone present at the time shares responsibility and it's heartening to read you and your friend realize better approaches benefit all. Learning from mistakes and how to deal with future situations, whether it be animals or speaking up when seeing other who can use some guidance, is a valuable quality – good on both of you for that. None of this is new and it is quite often us locals who deal with the fallout; both in terms of added scrutiny and the loss of animals and sites long visited. Seeing a reminder of what was and is no longer was like rubbing salt in a wound. I can only hope the disgusting person/people responsible for the damage are properly repaid for their actions.
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Joshua Jones
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Joshua Jones »

Looks like an awesome trip. I really like those leps. You managed to get some habitat shots that I tried and failed with my old camera. All in all, great stuff. Good work. :beer:

P.S. I didn't actually get to see the willardi shots, so I don't really know if they were a bad thing or not. But thanks for taking them down after objections were raised and for being patient with the AZ chapter. I hope to see another AZ post from you next year. :thumb:
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by regalringneck »

... well if the OP has thrown down, i guess im done too, tho there are all manner of unfinished bidness that really ought to be fleshed a bit further; such as the catch 22 that we wont tell you where to look or when to look, but if you do look & get lucky ... we'll happily bust your balls for sharing enviable pix ... especially if theres a flippn hook in view ...
& i seem to remember that kneejerk reflex to the "oldman" ... what a mentally sluggish category to use as a putdown, what i might even expect from one who dabbles in fraudulent science ?
Ok so the wiley willards are gone, i shall do likewise & will leave w/ a coupla interesting observations from the other night; magic hour; sierra vista to sonoita / perfect cond.- no vehicles = zip , then w/ heavy rains on north. & 61* & freekn cold; a gorgeous splendida crossing the rd. & a gopher snake also frigid & wet doing likewise, its like lat always sez; never give up :p
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by ratsnakehaven »

azatrox wrote:Terry,

Some may see this whole dialogue as unnecessary…Personally, I feel it’s necessary because for an organization like NAFHA that is constantly trying to gain legitimacy and recognition, commentary like this speaks straight to the reputation that NAFHA wants to portray and is currently portraying to the outside world. As such, it’s important to critically discuss issues as they arise. While I’m pleased that thus far such discussion has remained civil and “above the fray” (for the most part), if NAFHA wants to be seen as a reputable organization by those outside it then healthy discourse like this is essential to that goal.

-Kris
Kris, I understand your point and agree. One of my problems as one of the mods is that I also need to help keep people interested in the forum and NAFHA (being members, etc.) You know what herpers are like in general, and NAFHA is made up of herpers. Let me also add that the AZ Mtn Man had already posted before I saw this strand. (I apologize for not being on board every day, but it's been a very busy summer for me.) The critique he made sufficed to warn the OP from my point of view. I agree that discussion is warranted. I love discussion, whereas most herpers don't bother much. As long as we discuss things and don't just jump on every problem that comes up in a negative way, I'm all for it. BTW, I appreciated the positive demeanor you had in all your posts.

TC ;)
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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by ratsnakehaven »

AZMtnMn wrote:I need not address the points azatrox covered so well. I will touch on,

“We've been here before, lots of times.”

Don’t you see this as a problem and all the more reason to speak out when you see such activity? Behavior left uncorrected is behavior that becomes accepted. Do you find behaviors violating laws testified through provided imagery acceptable because of the appearance of popularity? Thing is, as a moderator, you shouldn’t have had to wait for me or anyone else to post; you should have immediately spoken up and ensured NAFHA’s position was well known to be in opposition of the behavior displayed on a NAFHA forum. Isn’t that part of the responsibility of being a moderator? I’m not saying this to impugn or attack you, I’m sure being a moderator is a thankless job, but moderators are the first line of defense in assuring undeserved negatives do not get attached to the site, forum, or subforum or the entities they support when actions or behavior not in line with the hosting site or entity is published for public consumption. I’m well aware not everyone appreciates when one takes such a stance; look at how I was ‘Gunned’ down by broaching the subject. Being a moderator and member of the community I’d think you’d have the support of the community you serve and the reception you received would likely have been more pleasant – no ‘shooting’ of the messenger.
Well, so far you've made 4 posts as AZMtnMn, and they've all been critical of someone. If I didn't like you so much I'd probably just delete your posts, but I guess I'll address your last post for the benefit of those who think you might have a point.

As far as my statement, "We've been here before, lots of times," I was referring to the fact that one person has a post and another person has a bunch of criticism. And, yes, it is a problem. It causes a lot of conflict between members, of which I don't think you are one. And, yet, you were able to have your say anyways. Have you thought of why I didn't question that? Anyway, you sound young and somewhat naïve. Sure you have some points about the law and proper etiquette, etc, don't we all, but you fail to see a larger picture.

I'm not worried about my "rep." I've been monitoring this forum for over five years. If you'd been onboard you'd know my stance on illegal behavior and improper hunting etiquette. There's no problem reinforcing those things, as long as we don't get personal. As members of this Chapter we have responsibility to also get along with each other. If that is your intention I will welcome you onboard.

Terry Cox/Chapter Sec. and Mod.
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by ratsnakehaven »

regalringneck wrote:... well if the OP has thrown down, i guess im done too, tho there are all manner of unfinished bidness that really ought to be fleshed a bit further; such as the catch 22 that we wont tell you where to look or when to look, but if you do look & get lucky ... we'll happily bust your balls for sharing enviable pix ... especially if theres a flippn hook in view ...
Hey, RR, welcome to the jungle..haha.

It's always been that way, trying to protect sensitive species and sensitive locations, educating members about what to post and how to post, etc, without stepping on any toes. Unfortunately, it's a fine line we walk.
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Cute little guys aren't they, until they set up house under the hood of your car or something....
Image
Actually, they are a big part of the food chain. The WDB's on our property sure love 'em. I wonder if the twin-spots munch on their babies?

BTW, you can find twin-spots in other places besides in the talus. One time, long ago, on that very same slope, I was hiking through the pine forest nearby when a snake crawled across my boot. I thought it was a mtn garter (which do not occur in the Cheeries), and luckily I stopped to examine it before touching. Yep, it was pricei, a twin-spot. Now I'm not much of a rattler guy, as many here can tell you, but twin-spots are one of my favorites, mostly because of the habitat and likeness to garters, and I got pretty excited about seeing this one. Needless to say I took a lot of photos and may have moved it off of my foot (even though technically that would have been breaking the law).

I have other twin-spot stories, but I'll just leave you with this one which is appropriate to this post. A friend of mine, visiting from another state had searched all morning on that same slope. He really wanted to get his twin-spot lifer. Giving up eventually he started back down the mtn and several miles, more than two, downslope, he spotted a DOR on the road. Yep, it was a twin-spot, and definitely not in the habitat prescribed to them. He was terribly disappointed to see his first as a DOR, but such is life. We can't always predict what will happen; we can't always control what will happen; but we can usually be surprised by what happens. Folks visit hotspots to see something special. Usually it doesn't cost them much in the way of time, etc. However, those of us that spend lots of time in the field usually see more in the long run, and we don't worry too much about those hotspots anyway, because we're hardly ever there...heheh!

Cheery O'..... :beer:
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by regalringneck »

... good job keepn the peace TC, & i agree; i fully reject the concept that somehow someone elses behavior "reflects" or casts a pall upon us all ... a pox .. & a preposterous proposition (that was for helihooks), again when i was packn metal, we used to have a saying, let me follow any hunter long enough, and i will catch him in a violation; usually it was true, not always. Traffic cops also say the same thing & again its usually true ... and so is life in a world overloaded w/ rules ... prolly gonna get a little muddy once inawhile, if you get out & actually get it on you :}
... i too have fd twinspots well away from rocks while trailhiking, i see them as our version of adders though, tho now that you mentioned it; garterlike too!
...Gotcher message OP, you keep on keepn on, dont let em keep you from anudda stellar post.
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Rothdigga
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Rothdigga »

Regal...
Got it and got it. Unless I find something this coming weekend up in the Kingman area, my next post will be on the main forum. I'm just finalizing a trip to South Africa next month. I'm working there (Sept. 20-30) but have 3-4 days prior to work to do some exploring. I've got great advice from some locals in SA and am putting myself in some pretty good habitat to find spitting cobras, forest cobras, Gaboon Adders (can you imagine) and a bunch of other cool stuff that I'll lose my mind if I get to see.
One thing you won't see a photo of...a group of 3 guys huddled around checking out a spitting cobra. I can guarantee you that. I'm keeping my glasses on and my distance.
Thanks.
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Brandon La Forest
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Brandon La Forest »

Same ol' willardi carousel different year. It would be nice to see photos like this, with a little patience it can happen.

Image

Cheers,

Brandon
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Biker Dave
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by Biker Dave »

Brandon

Maybe if you post more of these ^^^^ sort of pics we will see more of them! :lol: :lol: :lol:
hellihooks
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by hellihooks »

I hope everyone realizes that this thread, and the manner in which it was conducted, in fact fulfills Nafha's mandate to educate both those new to herping and even give some OG's 'pause for thought'.
I hope some will find this excerpt from the Herping ethics thread germane...

I fear that Erickson's A&S may be a little too detailed and hard to track ... I think a less comprehensive paradigm may be more useful, so (lacking time to write it all out) I copied something I wrote in the 'ethics post':
Since 'philosophical' terms seem to do nothing but make folks want to 'tune out'... I thought I might try this with some psychological terms that might be more accessible, regarding self-actualization and personal growth. Those terms are 'Id' (basic wants and desires) 'Ego' (constraints on the Id that allow people to function in society) Super-Ego (development of etiquette that allows us to function 'well') and the Ideal-ego (placing 'Ideals' above all other motivations)

It is exactly when these motivations collide, that we need 'ethics'. By way of example, yesterday I flipped a juvie Skiltons Skink. I wanted to catch it, (Id) because I really like these skinks, with their bright blue tails, their quickness and smooth scalation, ect. But they drop their tails SO readily, and the possibility of that happening was not worth me getting to hold it and trying to get a bunch of 'great shots' of it, for either data collection (Ego) or the 'kudos' I might get for getting 'great shots' of a hard to photograph herp.(Super-ego)
So I went for the 'ideal' of an insitu shot (as flipped. actually... :roll: )... and got ONE shot, before the skink vanished....
Image


I returned the Skink's 'home' to it's original sealed condition, and am satisfied on all counts that I behaved as 'ethically' as possible in this situation, and consider it a great herping encounter... :D
Depending on what your overarching motivations for being in the field, on any given day, are (observation, data, photos, ect) and the always different circumstances of each encounter, one must always make these motivational cost/benefit analyses on the spot, and it's much easier to do when one has given it some thought beforehand.

To be clear...I flipped the AC, caught a glance of the skink and put the ac back down, while I considered what I wanted to do. Got my camera ready... re-flipped and got the insitu. Granted... one doesn't always have the luxury of time to think, in the field... so no one will ever be perfect... but... it's a good habit to try to get into... :D

Terry... you can actually delete posts? I thought all moderation for Nafha was abrogated over to Scott? :shock: jim
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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by ratsnakehaven »

hellihooks wrote:Terry... you can actually delete posts? I thought all moderation for Nafha was abrogated over to Scott? :shock: jim

Technically, I can't delete posts myself anymore, not that I would, but I would have to get Scott to do it. I think I can still move them though. I said that before I remembered things had changed, then decided to just leave it. My bad... :roll:

PS: I thought this strand was educational also, and I'm glad the OP realizes the same. Your thoughts on ethical herping is spot on too. As we mature as herpers we get better and better at being ethical herpers (hopefully).

TC
AZMtnMn
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by AZMtnMn »

John Gunn,
Hopefully the irony of ‘mental sluggishness’ isn’t lost on you given your initial attempt to demean using ‘boy’ to address me.

Please expand on.

“from one who dabbles in fraudulent science”

I’m really curious what you mean by this. So there isn't any confusion please answer:
What is the “fraudulent science?" The projects, outcomes, you know, the general science you're asserting as fraudulent. What criteria did you use to determine fraudulence? Do I bilk the government for millions to do my “fraudulent science?” Overcharge or document unworked hours? Falsify data or mislead the public? If I’m working for or with someone that would mean their science is “fraudulent” too, right? Have you warned them? Do they exist?

Or…

Is it normal for you to freely reveal your irrational thoughts and asinine statements so everyone here knows the caricature you play online is real and equivalent to the crazy uncle families around the world try to hide from and hate to admit is part of the family? Do you frequently make unfounded and fraudulent statements?

If it's the latter, just say so and get it into the open so I know addressing anything you say is a waste of time. If not, I invite you to answer the questions so people can see how petty and dishonest you are...or do they know?
AZMtnMn
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by AZMtnMn »

Terry Cox,

“Well, so far you've made 4 posts as AZMtnMn, and they've all been critical of someone.”

I thought post 4 was mainly giving credit to those who found the animals for their ability to reflect on the situation and learn from it.

“And, yet, you were able to have your say anyways. Have you thought of why I didn't question that?”

Until you brought it up, no; not in the light you paint it. Why would you question or be opposed to someone not wanting ‘compromised laws’ and poor etiquette to be displayed and go unchallenged on a public forum supporting an organization in which you choose to participate? Why should discouraging or asking about behaviors NAFHA opposes create conflict among forum members?

“Anyway, you sound young and somewhat naïve. Sure you have some points about the law and proper etiquette, etc, don't we all, but you fail to see a larger picture.”

Apparently “not all” have points about the law and proper etiquette or, if they do, we wouldn’t have known since the discussion didn't start until I took the unpopular position of saying something. I may be young and naïve, or maybe I’m old and speak from years of knowledge and a considerable foundation of experience but, if I’m missing the larger picture as you conclude, please educate me as to what it is and how I’m failing to see it. If I'm missing it I'm sure others are as well and wouldn't we all benefit from being able to see the larger picture?

“As members of this Chapter we have responsibility to also get along with each other.”

Does that responsibility extend to avoiding having the necessary discussions about proper respect of animals, habitats, or pointing out what shouldn’t be posted on public forums? You seem to be occupying counter positions simultaneously. Diplomacy has it's place but the benefits of directly addressing issues is often the better approach...though I'm sure that sounds idealistic, young and naïve.
craigb
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Post by craigb »

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AZMtnMn
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Re: Successful Southeast AZ trip

Post by AZMtnMn »

Craigb,
Should I have “moved on” and not responded to comments directed towards me I felt warranted response? Is that what you do when someone tries to attach something decidedly false to impugn you as John Gunn attempts to do to me? I’m not asking everyone to agree with me, nor do I expect it, so what am “I getting over?”

Please show how my recent posts “point out I think everyone should be like me?” If my posts offend you because they directly address what was written and are directed at your forum friends I can understand the emotional response and your desire to defend them but that doesn’t transform my words or their meaning to in any way resemble what you’re attributing to me. I'm trying to understand the meaning of what people here say while sharing my perspective and position. Isn't that the idea of a forum?

How do you know I don’t take people out and provide instruction? How do you know I haven’t been active in education for many years in support of the herp community? You don’t, but present your case as if you think you do…and doing it in a way geared towards challenging my manhood doesn’t make you sound tougher and wouldn't be motivating if I were on the fence for undertaking such endeavors.
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