control

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

saleenadam
Posts: 27
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Location: Texas

control

Post by saleenadam »

........................................
User avatar
Gluesenkamp
Posts: 290
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:57 am
Location: Texas

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Gluesenkamp »

Sounds like there are two things you should stay away from in the same place. Why add a third?
saleenadam
Posts: 27
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by saleenadam »

.......
User avatar
umop apisdn
Posts: 395
Joined: June 13th, 2010, 6:06 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by umop apisdn »

I watched over a nest two summers in a row that had fire ants. Mom was never there when I'd stop by. Could never get more than a curious raccoon on the trail camera. Both years the nests did perfectly fine.

Leave the nest alone. If common sense doesn't tell you to stay away from the nest, the law does.
saleenadam
Posts: 27
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by saleenadam »

.............
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Kelly Mc »

Why are you interfering with the natural order and consequence of the natural world?

NO THERE IS NO POISON you can use that will let you sit covering comfy laurels so that you can get your pics.

This question and quest is very troubling. Also know that "Organic" stuff that kills or repells insects are not acceptable to use like this. The most toxic substances in the world are organic in origin.
saleenadam
Posts: 27
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by saleenadam »

.................
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Kelly Mc »

Ok im sorry. I will ammend it to a simple answer. There are no insecticides safe to use on eggs.
User avatar
walk-about
Posts: 567
Joined: June 14th, 2010, 12:04 pm
Location: 'God's Country' aka western KY
Contact:

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by walk-about »

Saleenadam,

Looking at this from a logical standpoint, would not the fire ants perhaps protect the eggs and nest(s) from much more likely predators such as raccoons, skunks, wild hoggers, etc.?? I live in KY, and the toll (mostly from coons) on reptile nests - especially large turtles is at times unbearable to witness. I can imagine that even apex beasts such as alligators & their nests suffer from those same predation mechanisms as do lesser ones. Those fire ants then might
be a good thing.

Rock ON!

Dave
saleenadam
Posts: 27
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by saleenadam »

^it's an interesting point because I would imagine a raccoon or hog would not be able to dig down for eggs if being bitten repeatedly... I had one of my cameras pick up a red eared slider laying its nest a couple months ago and a raccoon ate the eggs less than 2 hours later.
User avatar
muskiemagnet
Posts: 1253
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 8:43 am
Location: kaukauna, wi

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by muskiemagnet »

saleenadam wrote:Not to start an argument but there are published articles in journals documenting fire ants killing alligators when the eggs start to hatch. It is a combination of the hatchlings dying from the ants biting them and the mother not helping to open the nest and carry them to the water due to the ants biting her.
could you post a link to these published articles? i'm also perplexed by your mention of the mother being driven off by ants. not sure if i'm "off the wall", but it seems that ants would be of no concern to an animal with armor plated skin.

-ben
User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3312
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Don Becker »

Alligators are doing fine, enough so that they have a hunting season to help control their numbers. Alligator farms go out and collect eggs from nests, incubate them all, and then release young gators into the wild from those eggs. A nest covered in ants here and there is not going to do enough harm to warrant spraying any insecticides on them. If it concerns you, contact your local wildlife department, tell them about the situation, and then let them handle it.
Jimi
Posts: 1955
Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Jimi »

Between
Leave the nest alone. If common sense doesn't tell you to stay away from the nest, the law does.
And then -
If it concerns you, contact your local wildlife department, tell them about the situation, and then let them handle it.
Honestly, I think they about cover it.

If not though -
For crying out loud, look again at the subject line of the thread you've started. Are you kidding us? This is a troll gag, right?
I don't want to watch the babies get killed by ants when the eggs start to hatch
so don't watch, already

Jesus, when did we get so entitled to voyeurism?
User avatar
Mike VanValen
Posts: 2074
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:41 pm
Location: Connecticut
Contact:

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Mike VanValen »

Seriously? Spraying insecticide that will damage the surrounding environment to kill an ant that may or may not damage the nest, so you can comfortably take video/pics?

:roll:
saleenadam
Posts: 27
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by saleenadam »

Here is a link to one such published article from Journal of Herpetology I have read other articles discussing the mother abandoning the nest due to getting stung/bitten:

Effect of Red Imported Fire Ant Envenomization
on Neonatal American Alligators
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewc ... cfwrustaff


"Two animals exposed to S. invicta died. The first death occurred within five minutes of hatching. In that instance,' the alligator was slow in pipping and had difficulty escaping from its egg. As a result, that alligator received numerous fire ant stings (>30)."

"Our results should be viewed as conservative. During incubation the outer shell of most alligator eggs begins to crack because of swelling and degradation as early as two weeks before pipping (Joanen, 1969), allowing fire ants prolonged access to egg contents."

I'm not sure what part of a serious environmental problem makes this a troll gag? I said fire ant killer meaning anything that could be safely used as fire ant control-such things are discussed elsewhere on the internet like instant grits, diatomaceous earth, dish soap, etc to kill fire ants. I do not read all herpetological journals and figure there could be research published showing that some type of means be it biological controls or a chemical substance works to control fire ants on alligator nests. If you have nothing to add except a smart comment leave the thread and ignore my topic nobody needs to read your stupidity. This is in a highly suburbanized area and there is no hunting season here ever, there is no egg collecting here, and the wildlife department solution to alligators over 5 feet in the area is to shoot them due to having no type of alligator farms around to relocate them to. I'm sorry that it offends some of you that I have an interest in wildlife and land conservation. If you have never experienced fire ants I welcome you to come to Texas and lay down in a fire ant mound let them bite you and then see if you think they are a fun thing to have around.
User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3312
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Don Becker »

I'm not sure what part of a serious environmental problem makes this a troll gag?
A couple nests infested with fire ants isn't a serious environmental problem. If the majority of nests are impacted it may be, but by that point, there is nothing YOU can do about it. There are people who deal with this stuff for a living, so again, contact your local wildlife department, explain the situation to them, and let them handle it. IF they feel the ants are a threat to the alligators, and that those nests are necessary for the conservation of the animal, they will do something about it, or at very least, they will gather the eggs, hatch them in captivity, and then release them. This is not a job for YOU unless you work for your local wildlife department and were put in charge of handling it.
This is in a highly suburbanized area and there is no hunting season here ever, there is no egg collecting here, and the wildlife department solution to alligators over 5 feet in the area is to shoot them due to having no type of alligator farms around to relocate them to.
Then as much as you and I may love the gators, no one is going to miss them. Alligators as a whole are doing fine though.
I'm sorry that it offends some of you that I have an interest in wildlife and land conservation.
What offends people is that you are taking a vigilante approach to the situation and not thinking it through all the way. It does not sound like you are trained to handle such a thing, so don't do it. I help my local conservation board with land assessments, herp conservation, and even public out reach. There are plenty of problems that I find that I can not deal with on my own, and I have to tell the proper people about it, and let them deal with it. We have plenty of over grown sand prairies that are in need of burning for example, but I can't go set them on fire. As a better example, we have a dune area on one local property that is completely covered in Smooth Sumac now. I brought it to the attention of the conservation board, and now they are doing something to remove the sumac. I have also volunteered to help them cut out the trees and treat the stumps. That is what you should be doing. Notifying the people who are in charge of managing these things, and then offering your assistance if they are allowed to take it. Having you deal with fire ants though is probably a big liability for them.
If you have never experienced fire ants I welcome you to come to Texas and lay down in a fire ant mound let them bite you and then see if you think they are a fun thing to have around.
I've been knee deep in one of their mounds before. I know they aren't fun to have around, but what does that have to do with alligator nests? You have a simple solution to avoiding the ants, just leave them alone. Africanized bees aren't fun to have around either, but I wouldn't encourage anyone to try to wipe out one of their hives on their own.
User avatar
walk-about
Posts: 567
Joined: June 14th, 2010, 12:04 pm
Location: 'God's Country' aka western KY
Contact:

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by walk-about »

saleenadam,

FYI, the 'bite' of a fire ant is painless. IT is their dedicated, stinging (venom inducing) apparatus within their abdomen (as in wasp & hornets), or as they say - the 'business end' that'll getcha.

Rock ON!

Dave
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Kelly Mc »

You yucky eyesore ants!....You %#$*!!s Are Ruining everything!
saleenadam
Posts: 27
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by saleenadam »

....................
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by VanAR »

I don't disagree with the point of most of these responses, i.e. there are few effective insecticides safe to use on the eggs or in the surrounding environment, tell someone trained to deal with the situation, don't handle it yourself, etc., but this quote:
so don't watch, already

Jesus, when did we get so entitled to voyeurism?
...seems particularly out of place on a forum largely dedicated to the hobby of observing animals in the wild. If someone is not breaking the law or otherwise risking danger to themselves or the animals, what's wrong with watching something like baby alligators emerge from a nest, from a safe distance? That would be really cool to see, akin to watching hatchling sea turtles emerge and make their way to the surf.

Craig Allen has published several studies demonstrating both hatchling sea turtle mortality and reduced growth in hatchling alligators as a result of fire ants, so there definitely IS evidence that fire ants are a potential threat to hatchling reptiles. Thus, I don't understand the (fake?) outrage at somebody asking for advice on a way to limit the potential effects of an invasive species on a particularly vulnerable life-stage of an endemic vertebrate, regardless of whether the species is currently in good shape. It's certainly better to ask for advice on this topic rather than just grabbing a can of raid and heading down to the swamp.
User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3312
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Don Becker »

saleenadam wrote:The problem is it is federally owned land an the federal agency in charge will not give permission to TPWD or anyone else to enter (it is open to the public i'm not trespassing).
It sounds like you contacted the wrong people then. If you do contract work for the agency that owns/manages the property, then you shouldn't have much issue contacting a person within the group to tell them what is going on. If no one wants to act on it, then volunteer to help, but you should notify them first.
KecheMukwa
Posts: 30
Joined: April 16th, 2013, 10:04 am
Location: Jena, Germany
Contact:

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by KecheMukwa »

Just a thought, but wouldn't insecticide (even one safe to use on eggs) have adverse effects on native insects as well? Perhaps the best way to deal with a situation such as this is to jus leave well enough alone. In many cases (though far from all), native wildlife is able to adapt and learn how to cope with nasty invaders (certain australian birds have learned how to eat cane toads without ingesting their toxin, for example). Spraying insecticide on some infested nests may save a few baby 'gators, but it certainly won't solve the overarching problem of the ant invasion. Nature is probably gonna have to deal with that on its own, further interference from us may only create new problems. That's my 2 cents anyway.
User avatar
sep11ie
Posts: 112
Joined: May 9th, 2013, 6:35 am
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by sep11ie »

I have tons of gators around me. Due to our lack of consistent rain these last few years many of their natural/and unnatural water holes are gone. It's making it a little easier for the ants to affect the nests and babies, but unfortunately that is life in Texas. Same with the wild pigs, you can try to get rid of them but they just aren't gonna go away.

I 100% understand your concern for the little gators and I too wish there was a way to just get rid of fire ants, but in doing so it affects many other natural species in the process. Also remember, the reason they have so many eggs is many are supposed to die in order for the stronger babies to flourish.
Jimi
Posts: 1955
Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Jimi »

I don't disagree with the point of most of these responses, i.e. there are few effective insecticides safe to use on the eggs or in the surrounding environment, tell someone trained to deal with the situation, don't handle it yourself, etc., but this quote:

Quote:
so don't watch, already

Jesus, when did we get so entitled to voyeurism?


...seems particularly out of place on a forum largely dedicated to the hobby of observing animals in the wild. If someone is not breaking the law or otherwise risking danger to themselves or the animals, what's wrong with watching something like baby alligators emerge from a nest, from a safe distance? That would be really cool to see, akin to watching hatchling sea turtles emerge and make their way to the surf.
Van, I take your point, to a point. Perhaps I was a bit harsh or hasty. It happens, and I usually regret it; even apologize if I think it's called for.

I would point out, though, that the OP is discussing a bit more than just watching hatchling emergence. He is discussing applying a potent insecticide, on someone else's property, and specifically applying it onto a "wildlife feature" (a nest) the disturbance of which is undeniably illegal. So there's a little breaking the law, there's a little risk to developing animals and the attendant mother, and there's a little risk to him posed by the attendant mother.

Also, note that this enthusiasm doesn't seem to be just "to watch", rather it is to capture it all on video. He complained about not being able to find a nest without an intensely-vigilant mother, because it made it hard to set up his camera. Doesn't he know that maternal vigilance is a behavior that improves the chances of nest success? (How he might get the ant killer onto the nest without seriously disturbing the attendant mother - also undeniably illegal - is an open question.) And the OP's questions aren't in the vein "hey guys I've got an idea and um do you think I ought to do this" - instead it's "hey I want to do this thing and can you all give me some help?" So I think a little tough love is in order.

To me, it doesn't look like the passion in this case is purely for the wildlife, or the animal welfare, it looks like the passion is also (is it mostly?) for the videography. There's a touch of Marty Stouffer or "grizzly man" to it. And it feels to me there's a touch of entitlement - like there's a right to get in there and do this thing he's talking about. Which I really do not think exists. While totally appreciating the frustration that can come from having laws, bureaucracies, etc. They're often a pain in the ass, and sometimes they don't seem to - or just don't - make much sense. Yet there they are.

Finally, generalizing - I don't think it's out of place, right here on this forum, to reflect on the appropriate limits of "watching animals in the wild". Really - what better place is there to do so?

I must concede I've gotten a little sensitized, because I've seen firsthand some wild animal (herp, bird, fish, mammal, and invert) manipulation for photos that I feel oversteps the bounds of human:animal decency, and that I know sometimes causes grief to wildlife and/or humans. And I'm gonna - and I think we all should - call BS on that, right here, even if - especially because - this place is "largely dedicated to the hobby of observing wild animals". Observing and enjoying them (alive or dead) is fine - I work for an outfit that promotes that, and I am a BELIEVER; making them perform for our amusement is another. That's what my "entitlement to voyeurism" crack was about. I think every shutterbug out there - in here - needs to consider their actions within the context of the welfare of the animal, and also the bounds of the law and of common conscience. Respect the animal too, you can't just take whatever you like.

So, "saleenadam" (Sally, Adam, or whatever it is) - sorry if I toasted you a little bit. Hopefully you get what I'm saying. I think what you're talking about doing is well outside legal and ethical bounds. We try to self-regulate here. It's a free country, sort of, and you've got free will. But don't ask for our help to go rogue.

cheers,
Jimi
Shane_TX
Posts: 603
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 6:44 pm
Location: Upper TX Coast

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Shane_TX »

I would point out, though, that the OP is discussing a bit more than just watching hatchling emergence. He is discussing applying a potent insecticide, on someone else's property, and specifically applying it onto a "wildlife feature" (a nest) the disturbance of which is undeniably illegal. So there's a little breaking the law, there's a little risk to developing animals and the attendant mother, and there's a little risk to him posed by the attendant mother.
Geez. You must not live in an agricultural area with thick mosquito populations (typical alligator range). The coastal plains don't come without automatic and legal doses of chemical influence.

On a note for the OP, and I'm a bit biased because I see dozens of 'gators everyday it seems (minus hatchlings).....there are herps in the growing Houston sprawl that need much more help than 'gators! It would be a big deal to rediscover some of them. In core habitats 'gators are perfectly fine alongside appalling numbers of fire ants and feral hogs and skunks and raccoons and cottonmouths and big Nerodia and herons, etc. Are you some intern at Brazos Bend?

Shane
saleenadam
Posts: 27
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by saleenadam »

...................
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by VanAR »

Regarding my original post I was talking to one of my younger brothers friends earlier today who told me there was an episode of the Billy The Exterminator show last season where he was at an alligator farm applying a pesticide directly to an alligators nest because they were losing too many babies to fire ant predation. He soaked the nest with some chemical in a large sprayer once shortly after the eggs were layed and again a couple weeks before hatching. The babies hatched out alive so apparently there is some chemical that is being used at least by one weird person on a television show how much of it was real and what the chemical was I have no idea.
From an ecotoxicological perspective alone there probably are insecticides available (those are the only chemicals that would do what you propose) that would not directly impact the development of embryonic gators, especially if they act by penetrating/dissolving the chitin of the exoskeleton, or are effective against insects at substantially low doses. Furthermore, most contaminant exposure embryonic vertebrates experience in eggs is via maternal transfer of contaminants in yolk or albumin rather than uptake across the eggshell. However, that doesn't mean that the eggs wouldn't also take up an insecticide from the outside, especially if it were water-soluble.

There are three issues here that have been discussed to some extent, so I'll try not to belabor the point. First, on a TV show they could be spraying anything. With Discovery's recent track record, I wouldn't be surprised if they were just spraying water on the eggs to make it look like they were doing "something" to fake a good story; see recent shows on mermaids, dragons, extinct sharks, and fake "reality" TV shows (Turtleman and Sons of Guns are notorious examples) as evidence for Discovery's recent trend toward sensationalist fraudulism. Second, even if the gators themselves are not directly affected, the insecticides could disrupt other native wildlife in the immediate area, especially invertebrates, fish, amphibians, and birds. As a result, there are obvious and numerous potential legality issues with using insecticides in wild habitats, and especially when applying them to the nest of a protected/managed species. Best to bring it to the attention of local managers rather than DIY.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Kelly Mc »

VanAR wrote:
Regarding my original post I was talking to one of my younger brothers friends earlier today who told me there was an episode of the Billy The Exterminator show last season where he was at an alligator farm applying a pesticide directly to an alligators nest because they were losing too many babies to fire ant predation. He soaked the nest with some chemical in a large sprayer once shortly after the eggs were layed and again a couple weeks before hatching. The babies hatched out alive so apparently there is some chemical that is being used at least by one weird person on a television show how much of it was real and what the chemical was I have no idea.
From an ecotoxicological perspective alone there probably are insecticides available (those are the only chemicals that would do what you propose) that would not directly impact the development of embryonic gators, especially if they act by penetrating/dissolving the chitin of the exoskeleton, or are effective against insects at substantially low doses. Furthermore, most contaminant exposure embryonic vertebrates experience in eggs is via maternal transfer of contaminants in yolk or albumin rather than uptake across the eggshell. However, that doesn't mean that the eggs wouldn't also take up an insecticide from the outside, especially if it were water-soluble.
Most insecticides act by targeting neurological capacities, or most currently they are designed to interrupt developmental stages and reproductive cycles of the bug.

Gases transfer through the eggshell of a living embryo albeit passive - is absolutely unrelated to the permeability of a chemical agent through the shell.
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by VanAR »

Most insecticides act by targeting neurological capacities, or most currently they are designed to interrupt developmental stages and reproductive cycles of the bug.
Most. Not all.
Gases transfer through the eggshell of a living embryo albeit passive - is absolutely unrelated to the permeability of a chemical agent through the shell.
So you're suggesting that diffusion is unrelated to the permeability of a surface to the substance that is diffusing? Sure it is. Eggshells are MUCH more permeable to CO2 and O2 gases than they are to H2O vapor, for example. Also, a number of spray insecticides are liquids in aerosolized form rather than a true gas. Those liquids pool on the surface of whatever you spray them on and wouldn't necessarily diffuse through an eggshell as a gas, but as a liquid. How well they diffuse will depend on their molecular weight, polarity, and the presence or absence of a solvent that can diffuse across the shell, water (in its liquid state).
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Kelly Mc »

VanAR wrote:
Most insecticides act by targeting neurological capacities, or most currently they are designed to interrupt developmental stages and reproductive cycles of the bug.
Most. Not all.
Gases transfer through the eggshell of a living embryo albeit passive - is absolutely unrelated to the permeability of a chemical agent through the shell.
So you're suggesting that diffusion is unrelated to the permeability of a surface to the substance that is diffusing? Sure it is. Eggshells are MUCH more permeable to CO2 and O2 gases than they are to H2O vapor, for example. Also, a number of spray insecticides are liquids in aerosolized form rather than a true gas. Those liquids pool on the surface of whatever you spray them on and wouldn't necessarily diffuse through an eggshell as a gas, but as a liquid. How well they diffuse will depend on their molecular weight, polarity, and the presence or absence of a solvent that can diffuse across the shell, water (in its liquid state).

None of what you are saying is all that correct - especially if you are talking about some of the more absorbent collagen character reptile eggs.

And I wasnt referring to pesticides "Being A True Gas" AT ALL - but refferring to normal embryonic diffusion/exchange (that is passive but sometimes shifts in equilibrium) of oxygen and carbon dioxide. Not Pesticide being a "Gas"

Yes Van I know what forms pesticides are dispatched in I know more about them than you might presume.

So if you would like to show me how smart you are, pay closer attention.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Kelly Mc »

Perhaps I wasnt clear. My point is exposure to these agents that are designed to impair/destroy organisms be it the unavavoidable stray contact with the agent - its active AND inactive properties (Like various solutes or oily componants that have their own reactive capabilities - especially with something as basic and reactive as calcium and phosphorus, just think back to grade school vinegar experiments) or even its airborn molecules is a complex wildly unpredictable premise that in no rational way hints toward harmlessness.

I think we can agree on that, and that we do.

If the OP still has some doubt on the utter unsoundness of using pesticides near eggs, and he was also someone who bred snakes, I would ask him to test his willingness to expose eggs to pesticides by spraying any one of choice on some cotton balls and tucking them in his egg boxes. And I mean this as an honest interior assessment of his Willingmess to be comfortable doing it - not that he actually do so.

If the OP cannot relate to that hypothetical, then how about spraying some on your pillow, lightly like potpourri. How comfortable would you be doing that?

Are you willing to get that cool vid if the gators only had a teeny bit of chromosomal damage, as long as they came out alive with no ants to wreck the movie?
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by VanAR »

None of what you are saying is all that correct - especially if you are talking about some of the more absorbent collagen character reptile eggs.
Care to elaborate on what you think isn't correct? The absorbance of the eggshell protein itself makes no difference. If a chemical gets absorbed into the protein matrix of the shell, then it won't necessarily be liberated from the shell into the embryo itself. For example, calcium is embedded in the shell matrix, but requires a pH change promoted by carbonic anhydrase in the chorioallantoic membrane for it to be released and taken up by the embryo. Thus, chemicals physically absorbed into the eggshell, rather than diffused across it, probably just stay there. It would be an interesting experiment to do to find out if they later diffuse into the wet environment inside the egg.
And I wasnt referring to pesticides "Being A True Gas" AT ALL - but refferring to normal embryonic diffusion/exchange (that is passive but sometimes shifts in equilibrium) of oxygen and carbon dioxide. Not Pesticide being a "Gas"
I wasn't going to get into this, but since you keep bringing it up (along with the personal digs you always seem to make), the diffusion of O2 and CO2 are not completely "passive". Embryos have pretty sophisticated anatomical and molecular mechanisms in the chorioallantoic membrane to facilitate concentration gradients in order to promote that diffusion.
Perhaps I wasnt clear. My point is exposure to these agents that are designed to impair/destroy organisms be it the unavavoidable stray contact with the agent - its active AND inactive properties (Like various solutes or oily componants that have their own reactive capabilities - especially with something as basic and reactive as calcium and phosphorus, just think back to grade school vinegar experiments) or even its airborn molecules is a complex wildly unpredictable premise that in no rational way hints toward harmlessness.
Again, it depends on the pesticide's mechanism of action and the dose. As stated earlier, there are some that act by making chitin more permeable to water, which in effect causes the insects to die of dehydration. Likewise, the effects of pesticides are dose dependent; there may be dosages that are safe to use on eggs (just like pesticides on our food, or frontline on dogs, for example) that are lethal to insects.

Nowhere did I advocate that the OP actually use a pesticide on the eggs. I'm just stating that the idea that pesticides are always or by definition too harmful to be used in a situation like this is wrong. Yes, there are dangers, and no, an untrained person shouldn't take the risk, but there are likely some pesticides that could be applied in a dosage that would not be harmful to the developing embryos, yet would kill or stop insects from attacking. Heck, a pesticide could even be applied to the nest itself in a perimeter around the eggs rather than on the eggs themselves.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Kelly Mc »

VanAR wrote:
Eggshells are MUCH more permeable to CO2 and O2 gases than they are to H2O vapor, for example.
So as not to derail the topic just yet at least, it was this comment that I had contention. To my understanding egg gass diffusion occurs very slow and steadily with small shifts in its ratio, ideally maintaining a kind of equilibrium, for when if C02 levels exceed the rate of diffusion - the embryo dies. Water vapor however is more radical in its action on the status of the egg, in dessication or excess.

This is why most breeders default to maintaining stability in RH by limiting air exchange in incubation boxes.

On the speculation that there is more available oxygen in natural circumstances - even in eggs crypically covered, I favor allowing more air exchange and it makes necessary closer management of humidity levels which on large scale with bunches of eggs is understandably impractical.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Kelly Mc »

Commercial Dose has no precedence in its effect on reptile embryos.

The mode of embryonic gas exchange is characterized as passive. The structure of the shell facilitates its steady rate. Unlike Respiration per lungs in air breathing organisms, or gills in aquatics, which are defined as active.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Kelly Mc »

VanAR wrote:
there are likely some pesticides that could be applied in a dosage that would not be harmful to the developing embryos, yet would kill or stop insects from attacking.

This is more than unlikely = an oxymoron disconnect of biological rationale. Either it would lack efficacy or be charged with plauralistic impacts impossible to predetermine. Or lack efficacy AND have lousy impacts.

Maybe in the future this ridiculous concept would have merit? The pesticide industry just brainsorming away to formulate Egg Spray for ants.

* the safety of fipronil as referenced, as well as the multitude of chemicals in other spot on flea treatments is arguable case to case, on the very mammals they were designed to treat. Currently there are NO pesticides that have been deemed to be completely safe to all organisms except the target vector. Except in clever marketing rhetoric by the corporations that sell them. And even they lable symptomatic warning precautions.
User avatar
chris_mcmartin
Posts: 2447
Joined: June 9th, 2010, 12:13 am
Location: Greater Houston TX Area
Contact:

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by chris_mcmartin »

saleenadam wrote:My original post said nothing about me putting pesticide on a nest that came from other posters.
The very title of this thread--"...fire ant killer to use on alligator nests," suggests otherwise. Fire ants = pests. Killer = cidium (killing). Pesticide.

Regarding breaking the law it is a guarantee that people on this forum have manipulated a herp to take a picture where the legality of doing so was questionable yet nobody seems to question their photos or the ones in Herp Nation magazine that are obviously not in-situ. Please find me the Texas state law that prohibits putting a camera on a tree that has a field of vision towards an alligator nest and post it here since you think it is "undeniably illegal" to photograph a nest.
Your writing style makes you seem awfully defensive. You either intentionally withheld information so you could argue your point, or are changing your proposed actions and making it seem everyone else in this thread are those who need to rethink their position, not you...

That being said I am done responding to the argumentative posts from people that know nothing about my background or what I am doing I will ignore any further arguments and concentrate on those posts that have something to add to the thread.
Further proving my point. This type of response appears indicative of a passive-aggressive personality. It is not helpful in a discussion of what is otherwise a legitimate topic. If your background or what you are doing would help inform your readers, it might be useful to include it up front rather than trotting it out (or, in this case, merely suggesting it) well into the discussion, for the sole purpose of using it as ammunition for berating your detractors.

I will take you at your word that you will ignore this comment, but disagree that this post adds nothing to the thread. I hope it informs the "lurkers" as a cautionary tale of how NOT to request information and share experiences. I'm sure there are more than a few impressionable folks who might still have the capacity to reflect on how THEY present themselves to the world and adjust as they deem beneficial.
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by VanAR »

The mode of embryonic gas exchange is characterized as passive. The structure of the shell facilitates its steady rate. Unlike Respiration per lungs in air breathing organisms, or gills in aquatics, which are defined as active.
The more I think about it, the less I agree that embryonic gas exchange is passive. Passive diffusion implies that the concentration gradient alone drives gas exchange, in which case an egg/embryo would simply equilibrate to asymptotic gas concentrations over time. This isn't the case. I've measured CO2 and O2 exchange in turtle eggs and the rates of exchange increase with embryonic metabolic demand as the embryo/fetus grows in size, just as occurs in all amniote eggs.

Also, the molecular mechanisms of oxygen uptake and CO2 release in the bloodstream are identical between lungs, gills, and the chorioallantoic membrane of vertebrate eggs, regardless of the mechanism of "breathing". Oxygen diffuses into the bloodstream at the chorioallantois and is then bound by hemoglobin for transport to the site of cellular respiration. Carbon dioxide is converted to carbonic acid (and back) via carbonic anhydrase to transport from the site of production to the chorioallantois for release.
So as not to derail the topic just yet at least, it was this comment that I had contention. To my understanding egg gass diffusion occurs very slow and steadily with small shifts in its ratio, ideally maintaining a kind of equilibrium, for when if C02 levels exceed the rate of diffusion - the embryo dies. Water vapor however is more radical in its action on the status of the egg, in dessication or excess.

This is why most breeders default to maintaining stability in RH by limiting air exchange in incubation boxes.

On the speculation that there is more available oxygen in natural circumstances - even in eggs crypically covered, I favor allowing more air exchange and it makes necessary closer management of humidity levels which on large scale with bunches of eggs is understandably impractical.
This doesn't change the fact that eggshells are more permeable to CO2 and O2 than water vapor. Gas diffuses far more rapidly, and in hypoxic or hypercapnic environments embryos will die very rapidly (within minutes). Dessication, as you say, is dependent on RH, but even in the driest of conditions mortality will take several hours or even a day or two. As you say, nesting environments walk a fine line between being sealed enough to limit dessication and open enough to circulate O2 and CO2. That said, I've successfully incubated eggs from a number of turtle and snake species in containers that were almost completely sealed except for being opened once or twice a week. Even though the eggshells are highly permeable to CO2 and O2, the demand for O2 just isn't very high and the rate of CO2 production is slow enough that it takes a really long time for the air to become hypercapnic.
Commercial Dose has no precedence in its effect on reptile embryos.
Not sure what you're trying to say. I'll agree it probably hasn't been directly tested, but I disagree that dose doesn't matter. The effect of all poisons is dose-dependent.
This is more than unlikely = an oxymoron disconnect of biological rationale. Either it would lack efficacy or be charged with plauralistic impacts impossible to predetermine. Or lack efficacy AND have lousy impacts.

Maybe in the future this ridiculous concept would have merit? The pesticide industry just brainsorming away to formulate Egg Spray for ants.

* the safety of fipronil as referenced, as well as the multitude of chemicals in other spot on flea treatments is arguable case to case, on the very mammals they were designed to treat. Currently there are NO pesticides that have been deemed to be completely safe to all organisms except the target vector. Except in clever marketing rhetoric by the corporations that sell them. And even they lable symptomatic warning precautions.
Keep beating that horse. Just because they haven't been used or directly tested doesn't mean they don't exist. As I've repeatedly said, it depends entirely on the mechanism and the dose. I'm not saying that applying insecticides on alligator nests is a high priority or that it should be, but that the safe use of pesticides to protect reptile eggs is certainly possible given vast precedence in other uses of pesticides, as in agriculture, mosquito control, flea control, bed bug control, cockroach control, ant control, etc. We accept a minimum risk of pesticide poisoning for the much more vast benefits pesticides provide on a daily basis in all of these situations.
saleenadam
Posts: 27
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by saleenadam »

...............
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant control to use on alligator nest

Post by Kelly Mc »

Op why dont you just leave the eggs alone.








edited due to unnecessary surlyness
User avatar
chris_mcmartin
Posts: 2447
Joined: June 9th, 2010, 12:13 am
Location: Greater Houston TX Area
Contact:

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by chris_mcmartin »

saleenadam wrote:Kelly Mc-again I never said anything about pesticides. My original question is whether there are any substances that can be used to kill fire ants around eggs, my use of the word killer seems to have set off a firestorm of people who automatically assume that meant pesticides will revise it.
Something that kills fire ants, regardless of whether it's manmade or naturally-occurring, even if it's benign to other organisms, is in fact, by definition, a pesticide. Terminology matters.

cf. your other example--"I wasn't 'hunting,' officer; I merely moved that lizard to get a better photo." By its legal definition in Texas, for better or worse, that's still called hunting, with all the licensing that entails.

None of this is to be construed as an argument for or against your proposal; it's just ensuring everyone knows what you're talking about. "Pesticide" is the correct term, but may need qualification/clarification ("organic pesticide," "biological pesticide," etc).
Jimi
Posts: 1955
Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant control to use on alligator nest

Post by Jimi »

Geez. You must not live in an agricultural area with thick mosquito populations (typical alligator range). The coastal plains don't come without automatic and legal doses of chemical influence.
Why, no I don't. Relatively few Americans do. I would guess that most Americans (and FHF'ers) enjoy mosquito abatement programs, though, whether or not they know it. It's hard (and pretty unpleasant) to imagine life in New York, San Francisco, St Louis, Honolulu, Anchorage, Salt Lake City (where I now live), etc without their municipal mosquito abatement programs. Ditto anywhere within alligator range (where yes, I have lived, in aggie-rural, exurban, & suburban SC, MS, and FL - all of which featured actual alligators, fire ants, and mosquito abatement).

But this mozzie stuff is all totally off-topic. Look again at the thread's subject line - controlling fire ants on gator nests. Different agents (though I think we all now agree he didn't actually state "chemical", but some of us jumped to that conclusion), different targets & pathways, different actors, different purpose & rationale, different legal authorities. And despite his awkward evasions, I think we've all correctly interpreted the OP's interest, which he strongly suggested here:
Two nests I was watching the mother has left due to no water so i've only got one viable nest still going and don't want to watch the babies get killed by ants when the eggs start to hatch.
So if we drop all the chemistry and egg biology and all that stuff, we've still got futzing around with an alligator nest, which is 1) illegal under most circumstances, 2) not necessary for regional population viability, 3) probably not even desirable given the local setting (who really wants to grow more gators in dense suburbia, where the OP-stated "department solution" is to whack 'em at 5' - no relocation, no hunting season - anyway?).

OP - everyone here has an interest in wildlife and land conservation. Nobody here is God's gift to that. There are going to be differences of opinion, shared loudly and often obnoxiously. But it looks like the consensus here is, don't do it. You asked. You got it.

Cheers,
Jimi
saleenadam
Posts: 27
Joined: July 26th, 2010, 7:47 pm
Location: Texas

Re: Anyone know of fire ant control to use on alligator nest

Post by saleenadam »

......................
Shane_TX
Posts: 603
Joined: June 8th, 2010, 6:44 pm
Location: Upper TX Coast

Re: Anyone know of fire ant control to use on alligator nest

Post by Shane_TX »

So if we drop all the chemistry and egg biology and all that stuff, we've still got futzing around with an alligator nest, which is 1) illegal under most circumstances, 2) not necessary for regional population viability, 3) probably not even desirable given the local setting (who really wants to grow more gators in dense suburbia, where the OP-stated "department solution" is to whack 'em at 5' - no relocation, no hunting season - anyway?).
Why didn't you just say that the first time. Can you define "futzing" and its clear implications to the OP's intent? :lol: :lol:
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant killer to use on alligator nests

Post by Kelly Mc »

VanAR wrote:
As you say, nesting environments walk a fine line between being sealed enough to limit dessication and open enough to circulate O2 and CO2. That said, I've successfully incubated eggs from a number of turtle and snake species in containers that were almost completely sealed except for being opened once or twice a week. Even though the eggshells are highly permeable to CO2 and O2, the demand for O2 just isn't very high and the rate of CO2 production is slow enough that it takes a really long time for the air to become hypercapnic.
On another note - i have been hatching eggs a long time. What is described above is within convention, i know. I have done that, too.

But despite what is stated i have also done it differently - most especially if i am particularly invested in the clutch. And when i have, all of the babies hatch with no yolk sacs. They are completely assimilated. Perhaps it is a small unimportant detail to most. But not to me. I believe that neos that hatch with yolk attached in nature are less likely to survive. And that the complete assimilation of yolk apon hatching cues to other desirable features of constitution.

This sidenote in pardon is my own simple experience which i have no desire or need to defend. Maybe it may have interest or similiarity to someone elses.
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Anyone know of fire ant control to use on alligator nest

Post by VanAR »

That's an interesting observation. In my experience, its rare for hatchling turtles or snakes to emerge before they internalize yolk sacs if they pip before doing so, and I agree that their survival in those cases is likely to be low. I've removed them from their shells and they always seem pretty lethargic until the sac is internalized. Softshelled turtles are a cool exception- they internalize their yolk physically with what resembles a massive inhalation. It then takes about 4 weeks for the yolk to be absorbed from the internalized sac.

What you've observed could be O2-related. Hatching is a demanding process, and if they are in an enclosed container they may use up the available O2 to a greater extent during hatching such that the physical effort of yolk internalization takes longer.
HerpLoll
Posts: 3
Joined: July 15th, 2012, 8:32 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant control to use on alligator nest

Post by HerpLoll »

While I do enjoy taking sides in a good forum fight, I won't take sides here or state my opinion on legality or ethics.

I will, for informational purposes, answer the question of the OP.

I believe that the numbers and nests of fire ants could be severely damaged with the liberal application of DE (diatamaceous earth). DE is harmful to anything with an exoskeleton and mostly harmless (and even sometimes beneficial) to anything without.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatomaceo ... st_control

It is also dirt cheap (pun intended) compared to any other pesticide.

As to the damage it might do to native insects, it is probable that any insect wandering through the treated and decimated fire ant mound would die. However, it is also probable that any insect wandering within 10' of an active fire ant mound would die.

Good luck and I hope to read how this works out.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant control to use on alligator nest

Post by Kelly Mc »

So the OP should hunt down all the fire ant nests? Yay the fire ant problem will be totally solved!!!

Or to target the ants that are in the alligator nests - where the eggs are.

DE in the eye membranes of just hatched alligator neonates.

Brilliant!
User avatar
Brian Hubbs
Posts: 4735
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:41 am
Location: "Buy My Books"-land

Re: Anyone know of fire ant control to use on alligator nest

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Here ya go...just get some Phorid flies and release them by the nests. They kill fire ants and harass their activity in an area.



And here's an article from your own state:

http://web.biosci.utexas.edu/fireant/FAQ%20Answers.html
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant control to use on alligator nest

Post by Kelly Mc »

Pimp DOWN!
HerpLoll
Posts: 3
Joined: July 15th, 2012, 8:32 pm

Re: Anyone know of fire ant control to use on alligator nest

Post by HerpLoll »

Kelly Mc wrote:So the OP should hunt down all the fire ant nests? Yay the fire ant problem will be totally solved!!!

Or to target the ants that are in the alligator nests - where the eggs are.

DE in the eye membranes of just hatched alligator neonates.

Brilliant!
Not entirely familiar with mythical creatures, is your avatar a troll skull?

I often apply DE with such vigor that it makes a cloud in my garage and it does not bother my eyes.
Post Reply