Opinion on keeping WC herps

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jakehinds
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Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by jakehinds »

What's your guys' opinion on keeping wild caught specimens? Some people say it's fine since a lot of animals are WC then sold, and some say it's not right. Second question: Catching WC herps and attempting to breed them? If so, how easy?
jared68nova
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by jared68nova »

Funny...this was the exact same question I asked when I first joined the forum. My opinion is that you if you collect it legally, and more importantly....have done the proper research and know how to accurately replicate the animals habitat, food items,temps, ect... I say go for it. Just be aware that most snakes and even some lizards can have average life spans of over 10 years, quite a commitment if you think about it. I keep a few species at the moment, and it can be rewarding to see them interact with their environment. Try to make the tank as naturalistic as possible, a simple tank with just substrate and a water dish is like "snake jail" in my opinion. The animal will survive just fine, but you get to see a totally different behavior when you provide a natural more complicated environment. I think alot of the reason the vast majority of people disagree with keeping WC species, is the typical habitat damage that goes along with newbie collectors. Just don't go out and damage the habitat you find your critters in.
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Fundad
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by Fundad »

Jake you should introduce yourself..

Everyone's personal opinion on this subject varies from person to person, and you are likely to receive a large number of opinions/and debate on this subject.

Posting this topic as a first post is likely to draw unwanted replies.

Fundad
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R3dguitarist
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by R3dguitarist »

I agree with the above post, it'll get you a LOT of negative views. That being said, I've been keeping numerous reptile and amphibian species for years now and don't see an issue with keeping a WC specimen AS LONG AS it's done on a small scale (such as no more than 2 or 3 of species that AREN'T considerably rare) and done by someone who has a full knowledge of caring for the specific animal before hand. That's my two cents. You wanna support the wild population, not diminish it in any way.
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MarcLinsalata
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by MarcLinsalata »

Animals should be left in the wild where they belong - just my opinion.......... :idea:
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Mr.Talltree
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by Mr.Talltree »

I have just recently caught and kept my first snake ever--a Cal King that I legally captured. I've had him for a couple of weeks now and he is thriving. It took me a long time to come to my decision--I had been pondering capturing a kingsnake for about a year, and finally pulled the trigger when I encountered the right specimen.

I agree with Jared in regards to providing a rich habitat for any kept species. I'm working on developing and improving my set up for the little guy. With this being a somewhat controversial issue amongst our peers, I can't stress enough that a lot of forethought must be put into the decision and if you decide to go through it, you should completely adhere to all the ethical standards, written and unwritten, that our community stands by.

With that said, I've really enjoyed my first few weeks of having a pet snake. I find that I'm learning about nuances and behavior that can't be construed in a book or in brief encounters in the field.

Luke-
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R3dguitarist
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by R3dguitarist »

Luke is soooo right in regards to the advantage of learning about the subtle behavioral patterns and traits exhibited that you will witness with a properly kept WC animal. There's nothing like it!
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AndyO'Connor
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by AndyO'Connor »

Without sounding negative, keep in mind that there are laws about collecting certain species and also about breeding species because you are increasing the number of animals in your posession, and also that it is typically illegal to breed wild caught animals with the intention to sell the offspring. There are commercial propogation permits that make this possible to an extent, but ultimately, it is not necessary for most species. I also echo the opinion that you should tell us more about you, and what your goals are, so we can get to know you better. One and first post being about collecting and breeding makes it sound like that is all you are interested in, and many people here will have defensive attitudes towards you.
hellihooks
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by hellihooks »

welcome to the forum... which, btw is a Nafha forum, with Nafha being a data-collecting organization, that recognizes people's right to legally collect, outside of official Nafha functions. The opinions you get here may tend to be a little biased towards non-collection. If you post your question in the Herpetoculture (keeper) forum, the bias will certainly go the other way.
That said... most of us keep a few herps, either as personal favorites or for captive breeding programs... typically gophers, kings, and rosys (the locals you can breed/sell with proper permits) or non-natives like milks or boas/pythons, ect.
For decades I've maintained an extensive local reptile collection, for the herp Ed talks I've been doing (for decades) but as I do less and less talks I'm down to nearly 0 local reptiles, cept for rattlesnakes (which I use for talks)
My advice regarding wc's for pets/breeders is... get a neo, for 1) it adjusts to captive life better and 2) you're not taking a reproductively viable adult from the wild. Once you take a wc home for a while... it's actually against the law to re-release it... so take your time and choose VERY carefully
Soooo... you sure your not Fundad's kid trying to gather evidence to convince him you should get to keep stuff... :shock: :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim
mwentz
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by mwentz »

What Jim said +100 (especially the part of posting in herpeticulture forum)
rtdunham
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by rtdunham »

AndyO'Connor wrote:Without sounding negative, keep in mind that there are laws about collecting certain species and also about breeding species because you are increasing the number of animals in your posession, and also that it is typically illegal to breed wild caught animals with the intention to sell the offspring. There are commercial propogation permits that make this possible to an extent, but ultimately, it is not necessary for most species...
Andy, since the OP didn't say whAt state he's from, is it possible your statements are over-localized? Are they true for most readers nationwide?
hellihooks
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by hellihooks »

mwentz wrote:What Jim said +100 (especially the part of posting in herpeticulture forum)
Actually... we are mandated to teach those new to the hobby... I have no problem with his questions being posted here, just pointing out that he might get a broader perspective by posting on the keeper forum, as well.
At the risk of sounding pompous and 'elitist', (IMO) data-collection is further along the learning curve than collecting wc's (which most of us did, when young) and the quicker we help newbs develop, (by introducing them to alternative ways to herp) the better.
It's good he asks his questions here. :D jim
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sjfriend
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by sjfriend »

I know I started with WC but ended up with mostly CB. My thoughts now lean toward doing WC only if rare, very unusual specimen or a species that you really want that is never available as CB. Otherwise, you are much safer getting CB. But it is still ok as long as done legally and ethicly just not my choice anymore.
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AndyO'Connor
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by AndyO'Connor »

rtdunham wrote:
AndyO'Connor wrote:Without sounding negative, keep in mind that there are laws about collecting certain species and also about breeding species because you are increasing the number of animals in your posession, and also that it is typically illegal to breed wild caught animals with the intention to sell the offspring. There are commercial propogation permits that make this possible to an extent, but ultimately, it is not necessary for most species...
Andy, since the OP didn't say whAt state he's from, is it possible your statements are over-localized? Are they true for most readers nationwide?

No, since he made the post in the Ca chapter, I figured it was safe to say what I said, and I know many states have rules about native species being limited or completely illegal to collect at all. I wasn't even saying anything based on my personal opinions, just advising to look into the regulations (regardless of where he is). My personal opinion is there's nothing wrong with it when good judgment on things many already mentioned here is used, and I think collecting a wild animal can increase interest in keeping the rest of them out there and I think most of us have done it at some point.
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TORIN
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by TORIN »

If you can provide a good home for the animal, and provide proper care it's totally fine. Keeping a common snake, or two isn't going to harm the species. We have a few wet blankets here in this forum, but I think most of us are really only concerned if you're over collecting, or collecting for profit.
jakehinds
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by jakehinds »

Fundad wrote:Jake you should introduce yourself..

Everyone's personal opinion on this subject varies from person to person, and you are likely to receive a large number of opinions/and debate on this subject.

Posting this topic as a first post is likely to draw unwanted replies.

Fundad
Yeah I guess that would have been good so people don't think I'm a noob. Alright sorry guys lol
I've had my male russian tortoise for about 6 years now, and a female leopard gecko for about 4 months. When I was younger(than I already am) I would always catch frogs, snakes etc. I recently took a trip up near squaw valley with a friend of mine and while skateboarding, we caught a Rubber Boa. It was SOO cool since I've really only caught frogs and one handicapped garter snake. I wish I could go field herping more since I live right next to a creek and Maidu Park, which has a good sized wildlife area. As for whoever said something about breeding and selling offspring: I would never do that. The funny thing is, the reason I made this account is to comment on someone's post about them walking on a trail and talking to some people that said there were some guys catching snakes and selling them in florida but it took forever to get approved so I forgot where it is! But anyways, if the snake/frog/salamander/newt had babies, I'd release them.
mwentz
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by mwentz »

Jim, once again I have to agree with you 100%. Just meant the herpeteculture forum would be more forgiving. But it seems that this thread has actually been very civilized. (I shouldn't be too surprised)

I can certainly say that I would have not appreciated herps as an adult if I had not caught and kept them as a kid. I was a 10 year old a few years before the Internet really changed things, and didn't really have any mentors besides my dad.

I had innumerable blue bellies. A desert phase kingsnake, a night snake, a sharptail snake, gopher snakes, a garter snakes, toads, tree frogs, and had to catch all the prey needed also. I even taught my dog to sniff out lizards for me. (I created a monster).

Luckily my herping habitat. (As a kid) was cow pasture, so the damage I did was not as bad as if I had done it to pristine areas. (But still not an excuse. this day in age when much more information is available, such as putting rocks back and rare species.)(thanks to field guides I didn't run totally rampant, and still know of a population of western pond turtles that I am certain that I have been the only one to see in 35 years)

Have a great day,
Matt

As rdunham posted it is correct to state the specific California ethics and laws,nae this thread is in the California chapter.
jakehinds
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by jakehinds »

As rdunham posted it is correct to state the specific California ethics and laws,nae this thread is in the California chapter.[/quote]

Yeah, luckily for me, I have until september before I'd need to get a fishing license to catch herps. I'll check out the herp threads. Thanks
mwentz
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by mwentz »

Do we have a thread about how we all used to herps as children? I'm sure the younger people had more organized adventures while the older people had a lot more self learning.

I'm kind of in the middle. Pre-Internet but during the start(?) Of California outlawing certain things.

Do we have a thread about how our moms would ban certain herps but not others? (For the longest time snakes were banned from my house, but not frogs. Until the sierran tree frogs started quacking nonstop in the spring. I was able to negociate a snake then. They don't make much noise)
matt

edited for my phones auto correct.
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Phillodactylus
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by Phillodactylus »

I have kept and currently keep some WC herps. Finding a Baja Treefrog when I was 5 and a Side-blotched lizard at the same age were what really got me going into this hobby. Most boys grow out of it, but I didn't. I didn't start finding the really cool lizards (Collared Lizards and Chuckwallas) until I was in my mid-teens, and slowly through my twenties I was able to start discovering all the herp diversity (aka the snakes I was never able to find as a kid) that our great state has to offer.

This being said, the work that goes into keeping herps can be daunting, and the sometimes heartbreaking learning experiences we all go through at the expense of the herp can start weighing a person down. I presume that this is why most of us eventually stop taking herps home and start enjoying them in their natural environment. I do not begrudge a person who takes an occasional animal home. But you have to ask yourself as few questions. If I find that herp that makes me consider collection, here are the ones I ask myself. *The following are self-imposed questions and restrictions largely based on personal opinion, and not necessarily any formal science*

Does this animal have legal protection from collection? (If yes, leave it alone)
Why would you want to bring this specimen home with you?
Will your family be cool with this thing in the house?
How big is the population of the target species in the place you plan on finding your pet?
Are there large, and therefore presumably stable numbers of this species in that area? (If you herp an area enough, you will start to see what is common, and what isn't.)
Is the area in danger of imminent development?
Are you willing to purchase necessary items to make the herp comfortable and secure?
Can you provide care for its entire life?
Are you willing to pay medical bills should it fall ill?

If I can answer these questions thoughtfully rather than impulsively, I have a good start.

Something to think about as a herper is that the more people who know you're a herper, the more often people will start bringing you things... That's how it works in my life anyway. I help run a wildlife page on facebook, and aside from a few snake removals, I've had people ask me to take away all manner of herps from their property. Just food for thought.

To answer the mom ban note, I once had a nice big adult Cal King from the Mojave River (probably '91 or '92) but the darned thing got out almost daily and it didn't matter how many encyclopedias we stacked on top of the cage; this thing would not stay put. Remember the sliding screen lid cage was not readily available at this time. One fateful night, the King escaped yet again. Somehow, this kingsnake got out of his tank which had 3 or 4 encyclopedias on it, and bee-lined straight for the tank my Mtn. Garter was living in. It squeezed itself through the most unlikely crack in the glass and my little 8-year old self walked into my room after watching a TV show to see the King finishing off the Garter. (full circle back to that heartbreaking learning experience I mentioned) My mom said, that's it! No more snakes! I didn't have a snake again until I was 23 and had moved away from home.

Sorry if this was long winded. Hope you figure out what's right for you and your possible future pets.

best regards,
-Phil
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AndyO'Connor
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by AndyO'Connor »

mwentz wrote:Do we have a thread about how we all used to herps as children? ....
Do we have a thread about how our moms would ban certain herpes but not others? (For the longest time snakes were banned from my house, but not frogs...
matt
Quote edited for my sad joke, but I personally ban all types of herpes from my life.

Sorry.

As a kid I had tins set up that I'd flip just about daily and find dozens of garter snakes under, and a pond full of frogs and salamanders, and a blackberry bush growth that had alligator lizards near it. When I visited my grandparents in the summers in Lodi, CA, I would chase fence lizards, and found a couple gopher snakes and a kingsnake. This was all from the time I was 4 til about 12. After that I would only "herp" when we were on fishing/camping trips as a family. I got back into it heavily when I left college when I was 23 and got heavy into the photography aspect around 25...

I got lucky with having the mom that I did, before I was born she had a speckled king and a rainbow boa. She got rid of the boa before I was born, but the king was around for the first couple years of my life and I actually remember watching it crawl around in its cage (some of my earliest memories are of that snake). She fully supported my interest in reptiles and allowed me to keep whatever in the house as long as I kept them healthy and they didn't cause too bad of a smell. I had a full rotation of garter snakes for several years, tree frogs and salamanders raised from egg to adult, anoles, iguanas, ball pythons, all the "normal" pet store reptiles. I think keeping a reptile in a natural setup helped me understand and appreciate them more, and although I've collected a few things in the last couple years, I am trying not to expand my collection any further as it takes away from my ability to get out in the field too long.
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Post by craigb »

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hellihooks
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by hellihooks »

Isn't the speed limit back up to 70? not that I have a car that will do 70, mind you... just wondering... :lol: :lol: I like life in the slow lane...easier to pull over when you need to... :crazyeyes: jim
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Post by craigb »

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mwentz
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by mwentz »

AndyO'Connor wrote:
mwentz wrote:Do we have a thread about how we all used to herps as children? ....
Do we have a thread about how our moms would ban certain herpes but not others? (For the longest time snakes were banned from my house, but not frogs...
matt
Quote edited for my sad joke, but I personally ban all types of herpes from my life.
ughh, my phone keeps trying to change herps to herpes. I will have to try and add herps to the on phone dictionary.

/walks away in embarassment.

matt
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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by chris_mcmartin »

craigb wrote:Well 70 out by you....
In town 65....ish

Parts of Texas 75 !
In West Texas, it's 80.

I drive 60 these days...increased my gas mileage nearly 25%. I just allow more time for trips. Plus, if I DO get behind, I can safely and legally make up time. A lot less stressful that way than how I used to drive!
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Owen
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by Owen »

I don't see a problem with it if done legally, but PLEASE don't take a large gravid animal out of the wild :( .
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Pollo Loco
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Re: Opinion on keeping WC herps

Post by Pollo Loco »

Word of caution: most of the herps in the state are really not suitable for being kept as pets, even if their collection can be done ethically and legally. WC frighten and stress easily. Many carry diseases/ticks/mites that will spread to your other collections at home. Even old pet trade favorites, when collected from the wild, may not readily adapt to food available from pet suppliers (ie lab mice).

While it is true that most on this forum had taken WC in as pets at one point or another, most on the forum have also studied their WCs' natural history for a long time, and had learned from failures from keeping CBs.

I appreciate the encouragement (broadly speaking) that you have received from other posters, but would instead urge restraint on doing this. Try some delicate CB species first to make sure you can manage keeping herps with complex requirements. You will know if you are ready to tackle WC after that.

Please do not be that guy that treats our wonderful resources as a free-for-all pet store. NOT saying that you are, of course...

PL

Ps. What? Some one has to be the negative voice on this here forum 8-) ...
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