Turtles or birds?

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Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

I find turtles (by far) to be the hardest herps for me to get a good pic of... for example, here's a shot I took at full zoom (18X) at about 50 yrds...
Image
I managed to get to within 10 yrds for this shot, but as you can see, my camera focused on the grass in the foreground, and the turtle dove when he heard the camera click... :roll:
Image
There was also a big blue crane/heron in the vicinity, which I would have tried to get a shot of... but never got within 100 yrds before it took flight.
Maybe (probably?) I just suck at wildlife photography, but the fact remains I find both birds and turtles extremely difficult to get pics of...and can't decide which is tougher, although I'm leaning toward birds.
I'd like to know what other folks think... thx... jim
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by AndyO'Connor »

I think they both have their challenges, but I find turtles to be more difficult because I am usually above them looking down toward the water and it's tough to get a decent shot framed.

Your biggest challenge right now appears to be your camera and/or settings. I don't know of any point and shoots that allow manual focus but that would be a big plus, or use the trick I used to and focus on something in a different direction that's about equal distance as the turtle, then hold that focus and point at the turtle, it will help with shots like your second. The first one just appears to have been a settings issue, it's way too bright. 18x optical zoom is also difficult to shoot on a handheld unless you have some type of image stabilization and fast shutter speeds.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Try to focus just in front of the turtle. This usually gets the turtle in focus too. For example, if the turtle is on a rock, put the focus bracket just below the turtle on the rock. Also, take several shots while focusing on different points. Turtles do not hear...so the click was not the factor for it disappearing. auto focus is a bitch, but it can be done with practice.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by sep11ie »

Image

This one was pretty easy.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.49430660 ... &h=126&p=0
I'm pretty sure turtles can hear, as can lizards... :crazyeyes:
I appreciate the tips on how to be a better photographer... but... my question is actually: Which are more 'approachable' to get a shot... birds or turtles?
I admit to having very little experience with photographing turtles but have had 100's of birds take flight before I could get in camera range.
I'm a voucher shot guy... but I find turtles and birds very difficult to get even voucher shot quality pics of... :roll:
Not to say I don't ocassionally have success...
Image
Image
Had a much longer reply... hit submit, and had to log in again, losing the reply... one of those days... :roll: :lol: jim
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Chris Smith »

Brian Hubbs wrote:Try to focus just in front of the turtle. This usually gets the turtle in focus too. For example, if the turtle is on a rock, put the focus bracket just below the turtle on the rock. Also, take several shots while focusing on different points. Turtles do not hear...so the click was not the factor for it disappearing. auto focus is a bitch, but it can be done with practice.
Why not just use manual focus? Also, it is important to turn off digital zoom (only use optical zoom)!

-Chris
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

My camera doesn't have manual focus...at least not one that's worth a damn.

Heli: Where did you get a pic of a False map turtle...the zoo?
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

Brian Hubbs wrote:
Heli: Where did you get a pic of a False map turtle...the zoo?
Oklahoma, I believe... somewhere off the 40... :D Thx for the ID... maybe I should post the rest... got a bunch, actually... :crazyeyes: jim
Edit... on second thought... Ark.??? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Owen »

Jim, I'm not sure of the specs of your P80, but if you can, change the metering to center weighted (would solve the exposure issue in the first) and center spot focus (would solve the focus issue in the second). If you're shooting in 'P' mode, don't. Try 'A' and set it around f/5.6. That should help a lot. :mrgreen:
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Arkansas? Oklahoma? Then it's a Ouachita Map (with an RES). Wow, they need their shells cleaned pretty bad...
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

Brian Hubbs wrote:Arkansas? Oklahoma? Then it's a Ouachita Map (with an RES). Wow, they need their shells cleaned pretty bad...
there's actually 3 turtles in the pic...see...if ya look real...aw...never mind... :lol: :lol:
Thx Owen... I'll check it out...although I generally try to focus a little off center (to the left) due to an un-fixable scuff on my lens... :(
I'm still interested in which class (B's or T's) folks think are more 'approachable' towards obtaining pics. jim
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by chrish »

I think turtles are easier to photograph if you can get close. Even if you get close to birds (particularly small birds) they are constantly moving. They are always twitching or fidgeting.

But birds can be easy sometimes in that they can be lured to the camera in bird blinds by food or dripping water or other things. Turtles....not so much. :lol: Turtles generally won't come to you to be photographed.

But with both, the trick is to find places that they are acclimated to human activity. Then they will let you get closer. If they are used to seeing a lot of people from a boardwalk, for example, you can get pretty close -

Image

For flighty turtles, approaching from the water (a canoe, for example) will generally allow closer approach than by land.
Being in the water helps for some species ;)

Image
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

Thx Chrish... exactly what I was looking for. Although it just occurred to me, that for a truly equitable treatment, I should probably post this in the Birding forum as well... :roll: :lol: :lol:
"I come to tear the family apart...Father from son, Mother from daughter"... Jesus Christ
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

Chris Smith wrote: it is important to turn off digital zoom (only use optical zoom)!

-Chris
Why? I have often wondered about that... and do sometimes only use optical. I do find it harder to focus using full digital (steadiness issue) but often use full digital, as I did in the first long-distance turtle shot. jim
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by AndyO'Connor »

Digital zoom, the best way I can explain it, is kinda like the camera doing it's own zoom and crop, and almost always leads to a greatly diminished image quality. optical zoom, on mand point and shoot cameras will deliver the same image quality across the whole zoom range, but as soon as you start using the digital zoom, the camera is "guessing" on how to make the image look right...

As far as birds vs turtles, I think a big part of it would be what Chris mentioned as far as acclimation to humans, but also species in general. Some species of birds AND turtles are easier to approach than others. I may switch my answer to birds, because they may fly away and fly to a spot that is far beyond my approach, whereas a turtle will often times resurface at or near where it dove in, and present a new photo op.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Oh...turtles vs. birds...well, I have about 2200 turtle pics and only 20 bird pics...yep...that's my answer. :crazyeyes:
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Turtles do not hear...
Wrong.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Jimi »

Turtles do not hear...

Wrong.
My thoughts exactly. Horseshit they don't hear. That's part of why they're so hard to sneak up on! I can't tell how many times I've been creeping around fully out of sight of the turtles, but accidentally made just a little noise, and promptly heard them plopping or sliding into the water. It's inconceivable to me they weren't responding to my auditory cues.
the trick is to find places that they are acclimated to human activity. Then they will let you get closer. If they are used to seeing a lot of people from a boardwalk, for example, you can get pretty close -
More thoughts that were occurring to me. Any place with "koi kibble" and turtles is going to have turtles that'll just about eat out of your hand (a great destination example - St Augustine Alligator Farm). And even if there's no animal feeding, if there are resident turtles and lots of human foot traffic, they still acclimate nicely. You can observe this, for example, at any of the Florida state parks with gopher tortoises near the entrance booth. They're accustomed to people jumping out of their RVs and cars, and walking past. They just keep on chowing down, chasing each other around, etc, no problem.

(For the life of me I can't understand all the interest in birds. Kidding. Sort of.)

cheers,
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

I don't know...I was always told they cannot hear sounds like a lizard or mammal. So...I just picked up one of my turtles, who had his head out of the shell, and I yelled at it up close. Nuthin'...it just sat there, head fully extended like it didn't hear nothin'! I think you sneekers just don't sneak very good and the turtles see or smell your movement. And, if you doubt my little scientific test...here's a quote from the Internet (and we all know they can't lie on the Internet :roll: ):
Turtles don't have any "outer ear," the part that sticks out from your head, but they have all the "inner ear" mechanisms that other animals do. They also have the auditory nerve and brain center required for hearing. The outer ear gathers sound vibrations to make them louder. So turtles do not hear airborne sounds as loudly as you do, but they can sense and interpret vibrations in the environment. Hearing probably isn't very important to a turtle though, because their senses of vision and smell are excellent. The brain center for hearing is quite small by comparison.
So, even if they can hear slightly, it wouldn't be good enough to hear a person sneaking up on them, but their eyesight is amazing...In fact, here's one more example: I have walked up on turtles that were facing away from me and lifted them right off their rocks. They didn't hear me sloshing in the water to get to them.

I've been chasing turtles since 1969, and I think I've learned a little about what they are capable of in that time.

Try this test: Look down from a bridge at a basking turtle and yell at it. See how long it takes for the turtle to "hear" you. It won't. But if it "sees" you it will be gone in a millisecond. Turtles hear about as good as snakes.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

Yeah...I saw that online too...along with half a dozen other articles that say turtles Can hear... :roll:
I ain't gonna search for pics, but I'm pretty sure turtles/torts have what is for all intents and purposes their tympanic membranes on the side of their heads, just above the jaw... like lizards. And while they may not pick up sound waves from above, behind, or even from in front of them very well... I'm certain they can hear sound waves that come in from the side...IF they have their necks extended enough so that the membrane is not covered by 'neck skin'. So... fair to say that turtles often don't hear... but CAN hear?
I took your challenge Brian... and went out back and yelled at my turtle... her feelings were terribly hurt... she dove and won't come up...and she usually swims over to me, hoping to be fed... :evil: Thx a lot...now I have to go apologize... :roll:
While on the subject... I really do appreciate all the replys, but... 'find acclimated turtles'? :shock: Seriously??? :roll: I look for relic pops and range extensions... the absolute opposite of acclimated populations. I'm after the wild wild wary ones... 'tame' ones I got in my own pond... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by natrix »

I have found that it is possible to get much closer to turtles if you approach them in a small boat or canoe rather than from land.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by AndyO'Connor »

Not to hijack this thread with the turtles hearing topic, but I can video it if need be, my diamondback terrapin can absolutely hear. You can "sneak" into the room her tank is in when she is basking with her eyes closed and say something and she will open her eyes at that second. I've also seen several times with pond turtles in northern cali that were basking with their eyes closed and my footsteps on gravel, or the truck door being shut too loudly "woke" them and they dove. Sure I suppose they could have smelled me, but with wind not always going towards them, sound makes more sense.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

I've noticed the truck door thing, too.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

natrix wrote:I have found that it is possible to get much closer to turtles if you approach them in a small boat or canoe rather than from land.
there's not that many places in Ca, (to my knowledge) where you can use a boat to approach turtles.
I can understand turtles being naturally skittish...but hawks and such, sitting way up out of reach, in a tree? I can never seem to get close enough for shots... :? I'm gonna stick with birds are harder to get shots of...
We got really lucky this spring, at our Tejon ranch survey, when this Ca Condor alighted on a rock outcrop, long enough for several of us to get shots... mine weren't great... but... :D
Image :arrow:
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Chris Smith
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Chris Smith »

Not only can turtles hear, but they vocalize! There is some new research on the subject... It is very interesting!!

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?as_yl ... s_sdt=0,24

-Chris
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

there's not that many places in Ca, (to my knowledge) where you can use a boat to approach turtles.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Maybe if you got out more (or if they let you out more) you might see some of those places...or even if you just looked on google earth sometime... :roll: There's over 10,000 places in CA where you can see a turtle from a boat or inner tube...

And Chris: I don't believe anything scientists say... :)
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by walk-about »

If we're comparing turtles to humans, they would be for all intensive purposes - 'legally deaf'. I would guesstimate that the majority (90 %) of the world's turtles live within or in very close proximity to aquatic situations (e.g: WATER). Turtles do not possess an outer ear, BUT do have a fairly well developed middle ear, which has evolved specifically for absorption of underwater sound waves. They have an auditory nerve that is capable of lower mid-frequncy sounds. Jakob Christensen-Daisgaard (Denmark) did an in depth study on this subject. But they are incapable of 'hearing' airborne sounds anywhere remotely to the degree of humans and other mammals. And this is just a fact.

In my research, I am in the water often with turtles - Apalone, Chrysemys, Pseudemys, Trachemys, and especially Graptemys. I am able to capture turtles via hand by simply swimming up to them and behind them. By keeping my movements to a minimum, I am successful. 'Splashing' sounds have little effect if any upon basking turtles. But a high pitched sound such as a 'slap' of the hands will certainly capture their attention.

Rock ON!

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Brian Hubbs
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Thank you. It's nice to see an experienced and knowledgeable person comment here. :thumb:
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

Brian Hubbs wrote:
there's not that many places in Ca, (to my knowledge) where you can use a boat to approach turtles.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Maybe if you got out more (or if they let you out more) you might see some of those places...or even if you just looked on google earth sometime... :roll: There's over 10,000 places in CA where you can see a turtle from a boat or inner tube...
I live in the desert... nearest place I can put a boat in the water is Silverwood. the ONLY turtles i'm interested in seeing are WPT... which seem to be in creeks/streams as much as ponds/lakes. got way better things to do than drive 100 miles, rent a boat to see a stupid invasive turtle.
In fact.. let me re-phrase my original question: Which SUCK more...turtles or birds... :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: jim
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

drive 100 miles, rent a boat to see a stupid invasive turtle.
Why would it be invasive? It would probably be a pond turtle. There's a reason they are called pond turtles...here's a few from ponds and lakes:

Image
Two male Northwestern Pond Turtles by Brian Hubbs, on Flickr

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A pile of Southwestern Pond Turtles in a ranch pond by Brian Hubbs, on Flickr

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27 Southwestern Pond Turtles by Brian Hubbs, on Flickr

Image
40+ Northwestern Pond Turtles by Brian Hubbs, on Flickr

Image
Male & Female Northwestern Pond Turtles by Brian Hubbs, on Flickr
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Owen »

Turtles are deffinitely easier to get a usable picture than birds. My keeper rate is much beter with turtles, but sometimes you need to stalk them. Other times, they're just sitting in front of you:

Image

or you can watch them haul out of the creek:

Image

sometimes, you need to sneak up on them... but move slowly:

Image

Image

Of course, there are the skittish ones... most of these dive as soon as they see you:

Image
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

Oy! Here comes Owen with his damn HUGE camera again... :|

I got a few sharp pics myself there dude...the first is from a pond nobody will ever try to collect from...a sewage pond...heh, heh

Image
Southwestern Pond Turtle by Brian Hubbs, on Flickr

Image
Male Southwestern Pond Turtle - CA by Brian Hubbs, on Flickr

and then, there's the classic turtle and crawdad in-situ shot at a (gasp!, choke!) POND:

Image
Southwestern Pond Turtle and Crawdad dinner by Brian Hubbs, on Flickr
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

How many of those So Cal ponds/lakes are you allowed to put a canoe/boat in Brian?
I don't hate any animal... hell.. i have 'pet turtles' in my pond.
I wonder if there's turtles in Glen Helen? oops... there I go again... :roll: seems to be two reasons to try for certain herps... you REALLY REALLY like seeing them... or.. they piss you the hell off... :lol: :lol: jim Nice pics guys... :thumb:
FYI... WPT's are STILL on my life list... :roll:
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

With permission...2 of them, without permission (not needed)...1 of them. But the turtles are easy to photograph from shore at all of them. Who said you didn't like animals?
The problem with extreme socal (L.A. county and south) is access to where the turtles are and duplication of other's entries. The easy places have pretty much been documented, and the tough ones are on private property or way up creeks and rivers requiring a long-ass hike. And one long-ass hike area is being documented to hell by one guy on the forum right now. If you just want to see one and get a pic, go to any park pond along a major SoCal river and use binoculars and your telephoto lens to see them. They are in many of those, along with RES and other invasives.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

I appreciate the help Brian, but no... my goal is not to JUST see one, but rather, as you say, get a tough, preferable new locale for them.
I now have access ti Flores Ranch, so hope to confirm they are still there along the West Fork of the Mojave.
IF the turtle I saw in Helendale turns out to be a WPT, rather than an Invasive... that would be noteworthy as well.
You don't go to Sea World... for your White Whale... :crazyeyes: :D jim
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Jimi »

'find acclimated turtles'? :shock: Seriously??? :roll: I look for relic pops and range extensions... the absolute opposite of acclimated populations. I'm after the wild wild wary ones... 'tame' ones I got in my own pond... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim
Jim, while I appreciate (& share) your interests the original question in this thread concerned photo'ing turtles & birds. Acclimated turtles (and birds for that matter) are simply a lot easier to look at & photograph than wild skittish ones. Trying to be practical & helpful here.
a sewage pond
I too have had a few sewage pond "secret spots" in the various places I've lived. They can host incredible turtle densities. (And I'll admit that as a child in the 70's, I did indeed collect a few choice turtles & snakes from these restricted-access poo lagoons. There's probably still a little of that going on today with intrepid young naturalists.)

Owen - another fan of your pics here. Thanks!

cheers,
Jimi
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by chrish »

Back to the turtles and birds issue, I would add that it varies by species. Trachemys and Pseudemys are easier to photograph than Graptemys, in my experience. And some birds, like Herons are easy to photograph. Hawks and Flycatchers tend to be pretty easy as well if you know what you are doing. Some owls are pretty easy as well. Other birds, like Swifts are really tough.

I probably shot over 200 shots to get any usable shot of this Chimney Swift.

Image
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Brian Hubbs »

I tried the "turtles can hear" experiment again yesterday in CA. I was on a bridge and screamed at 4 turtles basking on a rock below me in a creek. NUTHIN'...THEY ARE DEAF...TO AIRBORNE SOUNDS...!!! Now, I don't want to hear anymore about this subject...oh, and Chrish...nice pic of a bird... :lol:
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Jimi »

Trachemys and Pseudemys are easier to photograph than Graptemys
I never tried to take their pictures but substituting "get close to", my experience is the same. Maps are some of the most vigilant turtles I've pursued. I wish we saw more pictures of them here - they're also exceptionally charismatic, and they often live in gorgeous habitats. Maybe our best southern shutterbugs are wasting too much time birdwatching!!!
I don't want to hear anymore about this subject
If a Hubbs screams on a bridge and some turtles ignore him - did it ever actually happen?!?! Ha ha...

Just kidding. I'm not going to invalidate your observations. I'm just telling you, I've had quite a number of instances of hot dry turtles diving off their logs or running off their sandbars when I was approaching them - undoubtedly out of their sight. My deductions at the time, which I've had no reason to doubt later, was that they responded to noises I accidentally made (snapping twigs, falling down heavily on slick steep banks, etc). I never considered what might have been the pitch that was transmitted by my actions. Perhaps that's the source of the apparent discrepancy. I've never had cause to yell at turtles - at least not before they eluded me. What kind of grumpy jerk screams at happy turtles? Ha ha.

So Hubbs, with all this monsoon action in N AZ are you gonna come back and milk it?

cheers,
Jimi
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by TravisK »

For me, so far anyway, birds have been easier.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

turtles can't hear high-pitched sounds, and Hubbs screams like a girl? :lol: :lol: jim

And BTW... The answer to the old philosophical question "If a tree falls in the forest, and there's no one there to hear it... did it make a sound?"... is NO... it did not make a sound. A 'sound' is recognition of received and processed sound waves... without the receiving apparatus and sufficient cognition to process sound waves... there are only sound waves, bouncing off stuff.
Something to think about while you're waiting for some stupid turtle to pop his head back up... which he might not, cause sound waves travel better through water than air... :roll: :lol: :lol:

Thx to those folks who can stay on track, and who offered their opinions as to which are most difficult to approach. so far only one person thinks birds are easier... :shock:
It is interesting that (to my knowledge) you don't need a photo voucher... to report a bird... just a visual. No Wonder they have so many millions of records... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:
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chrish
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by chrish »

hellihooks wrote:A 'sound' is recognition of received and processed sound waves... without the receiving apparatus and sufficient cognition to process sound waves... there are only sound waves, bouncing off stuff.
Then why are those called "sound" waves?
Sound exists in the absence of perception.

If a tree falls in the middle of the forest, it makes a sound. Period. Actually, it makes lots of sounds, loud ones.
Only people who majored in philosophy in college think otherwise, and they are all too busy asking people "Do you want fries with that?" to really be aware of anything happening in the real world. "I think therefore I am"....really? If you thought about anything at any level you would have majored in something useful!

I digress....and therefore I am.
It is interesting that (to my knowledge) you don't need a photo voucher... to report a bird... just a visual. No Wonder they have so many millions of records... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:
Not exactly true. To report a trashbird in your yard, you don't need a voucher because no one cares. But if you report a rarity or a bird out of its expected season, you generally do have to have a voucher or really detailed notes explaining how you knew what it was and how you eliminated other species. And then the bird records committee may reject it anyway.

The reason there are millions of records is that there are millions of people reporting. "According to the National Survey on Recreation and the Environment, there were 84 million U.S. birders in 2000, up from an equally astonishing 54 million in 1995." That number would have grown substantially in the last 13 years since birdwatching is one of the fastest growing hobbies out there. More people watch birds than play golf or fish, for example.
So let's say there are only 84 million birders still, and only 1 percent of those would enter data online, that's a healthy 800,000 birders putting in data.

And birding generally doesn't require access to private land or violation of state/local laws.

And birdwatchers report herp sightings on places like iNaturalist.org.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

chrish wrote:
hellihooks wrote:A 'sound' is recognition of received and processed sound waves... without the receiving apparatus and sufficient cognition to process sound waves... there are only sound waves, bouncing off stuff.
Then why are those called "sound" waves?
Sound exists in the absence of perception.

If a tree falls in the middle of the forest, it makes a sound. Period. Actually, it makes lots of sounds, loud ones.
Only people who majored in philosophy in college think otherwise, and they are all too busy asking people "Do you want fries with that?" to really be aware of anything happening in the real world. "I think therefore I am"....really? If you thought about anything at any level you would have majored in something useful!

I digress....and therefore I am.
They are called 'sound waves' because humans typically force their 'abstract purview' on a material realm... what they really are, are pressure waves... and ONLY when those waves hit a receiving apparatus and are processed by sentience, are they THEN called (by us alone) sounds.
The insistence that reality remains the same, whether viewed or not, is patently naive, and does not comport with Quantum Physics, (see Schrödinger's cat) which most of our technology is now based upon.
I'll bet you think 'time' actually exists, as well... :roll: :lol: :lol:
And lest we forget...ALL Science was once considered but a branch of Philosophy, and everything anyone ever does, has at it's base Philosophical underpinnings.
No offense... but 'deep thoughts' are for those capable of understanding them... typically those who 'bash' them do so out of a fear of 'falling short' (not comprehending) or a basic laziness towards 'truth'. I would have expected better of you, Chrish. :? jim
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by chad ks »

hellihooks wrote:
chrish wrote:
hellihooks wrote:A 'sound' is recognition of received and processed sound waves... without the receiving apparatus and sufficient cognition to process sound waves... there are only sound waves, bouncing off stuff.
Then why are those called "sound" waves?
Sound exists in the absence of perception.

If a tree falls in the middle of the forest, it makes a sound. Period. Actually, it makes lots of sounds, loud ones.
Only people who majored in philosophy in college think otherwise, and they are all too busy asking people "Do you want fries with that?" to really be aware of anything happening in the real world. "I think therefore I am"....really? If you thought about anything at any level you would have majored in something useful!

I digress....and therefore I am.
They are called 'sound waves' because humans typically force their 'abstract purview' on a material realm... what they really are, are pressure waves... and ONLY when those waves hit a receiving apparatus and are processed by sentience, are they THEN called (by us alone) sounds.
The insistence that reality remains the same, whether viewed or not, is patently naive, and does not comport with Quantum Physics, (see Schrödinger's cat) which most of our technology is now based upon.
I'll bet you think 'time' actually exists, as well... :roll: :lol: :lol:
And lest we forget...ALL Science was once considered but a branch of Philosophy, and everything anyone ever does, has at it's base Philosophical underpinnings.
No offense... but 'deep thoughts' are for those capable of understanding them... typically those who 'bash' them do so out of a fear of 'falling short' (not comprehending) or a basic laziness towards 'truth'. I would have expected better of you, Chrish. :? jim
Jim, you're being too gentle. :twisted:

Science is no bastard child, it resulted from philosophy and logic and once the current skeptical paradigm is over, it will return to its place among all the other cultural constructs.

Chris, for what it's worth quantum wave collapse/wave function collapse is the pillar of the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics which relates the classic reality to quantum reality. It's taught in graduate level physics courses; Nobel Prize winning physicist Claude Tanoudji utilized the theory heavily to construct his widely cited and standardized text book "Mécanique quantique". Just remember that an electron can be in multiple locations at one instant, and it forms a cloud because of its locations. When we observe the classical world, we're seeing a snapshot preservation of one of these locations per electron, and how we interpret the classical world results from the frequency by which our senses present data to regions of the brain which aid in filling the gaps in perception.

Anyway, I wouldn't spend too much time trying to refute Bohr and Heisenberg.
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by hellihooks »

exactly.... 'perception' causes Quantum Wave collapse, and thereby shapes reality :thumb: thx Chad.. i'm having a groggy day... :) jim
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Aaron »

Jim how much does a shadow weigh?
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chrish
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by chrish »

Saying that a sound is only a pressure wave until it is perceived by a human (or other organsim capable of perceiving that pressure wave) isn't quantum mechanics, nor is it philosophy. It is semantics.

And philosophy and quantum mechanics are different fields. Yes, they may have some common origins, but the scientist doesn't accept the metaphysical explanation while the philosopher might.

And I'm glad we're staying on topic here. 8-)
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by BillMcGighan »

Apologies to Jim on fostering the hijack but the subject of turtles hearing is really interesting.


Seems like asking the questions of what, if anything, do some species hear might be understood better by why some species might hear.


Do sliders and similar fresh water turtles need air wave hearing to avoid predators or breed?

Find food?

Do sliders and similar fresh water turtles need water wave hearing?
(If you SCUBA or snorkel much, it can sometimes be amazing by how much clicking type noise be under water by exoskeletons, gill rakers, stone rolling, etc.)

Do tortoises hear more air wave type frequencies to avoid predation?


We know that predominately land turtles already have some different behaviors than water dwellers:
(e.g.
A wood Turtle or Box turtle will swallow it food on land; a painted turtle will run around on land with food for hours, but not swallow unless it gets under water.
A tortoise, Wood Turtle, or Box Turtle will walk around on a yard high kitchen table and not step off (unless put into a panic); a Painted Turtle will bail out without hesitation.)
Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Tamara D. McConnell »

Jim how much does a shadow weigh?
Nevermind that. What we need to figure out is how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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Kelly Mc
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Re: Turtles or birds?

Post by Kelly Mc »

I know a birder, his name is Dominic but I call him Yeti.

He is able to get so close to animals (no human acclimation necessary, or Desired) it borders on the supernatural. Hence Yeti.

If you peruse birder forums you are bound to see his pictures. He holds various records I dont have a link right now.
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