EDB-like WDBs?

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WW**
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EDB-like WDBs?

Post by WW** »

I am sure most of you here will have seen the photo of a diamondback rattlesnake surrounded by guinea fowl that has been going viral all over the web:

Image

Taken from http://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/f ... p?t=307898 - not my image of course, no idea who the author is, but since it is already all over the place, I hope I may be forgiven for posting it here.

This generated some intense discussion of the ID of the snake on an FB group (not sure which, and searching for stuff like that on FB is pretty hopeless), with the upshot that opinion tended towards an extremely EDB-like WDB, on account of the clearly visible "coon-tail" of the snake (you may need to blow the image up to really see it).

SOOOOO, question: how common are such EDB-like WDBs and where (general area only, not asking for precise locations of course!)? What kinds of habitat? Photos are always nice to see, needless to say ;)
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VanAR
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by VanAR »

To me, it looks like an EDB. EDBs can have a slight coontailish look similar to WDBs, but without the extreme contrast of white/black, which that animal doesn't seem to have, or else is not clearly visible (to me at least) even when blown up.

Here's an example (not my photo):
Image

Everything else- the size/shape of the diamonds, the colors, etc. just look like an EDB to me. The WDBs I've seen in Arkansas can have a yellow/greenish tint similar to EDBs, but the diamonds are rarely well-defined enough to contrast so much with the background pattern, and are also shaped differently. These photos don't show it, but the coontail bands on these animals are just as black/white as those of animals from elsewhere in their range:

Image

Image
WW**
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by WW** »

VanAR wrote:To me, it looks like an EDB. EDBs can have a slight coontailish look similar to WDBs, but without the extreme contrast of white/black, which that animal doesn't seem to have, or else is not clearly visible (to me at least) even when blown up.

Here's an example (not my photo):
LOL! - I know because it's mine
Everything else- the size/shape of the diamonds, the colors, etc. just look like an EDB to me. The WDBs I've seen in Arkansas can have a yellow/greenish tint similar to EDBs, but the diamonds are rarely well-defined enough to contrast so much with the background pattern, and are also shaped differently. These photos don't show it, but the coontail bands on these animals are just as black/white as those of animals from elsewhere in their range
With you all the way, except that during that discussion, some people linked in photos of WDBs (from C. or S. Texas IIRC) that really did look very EDB like - just chasing that up out of curiosity. Sure doesn't look like any WDB I have ever seen in captivity or in the wild, but then my encounters have been in AZ/NM.
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VanAR
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by VanAR »

LOL! - I know because it's mine
That's what I get for linking directly from google image!
Terry Vandeventer
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by Terry Vandeventer »

It's a 100% eastern diamondback. I'm thinking that the picture might be faked. The snake looks like it's dead to me. It's a little "tipped over" at mid-body and even at 400 magnification, the head is suspect. Just looks posed, IMO.

Wouldn't be hard to get those guineas to gather around a little cracked corn for a group shot. :shock:

Cheers,

TV
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Stohlgren
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by Stohlgren »

I also agree that that is an eastern. I commented on that facebook post (or one similar) a while ago and I remember someone posting some photos of "edb-like" westerns, and while they did look a bit like edbs, you could still tell they were atrox.

Like Van said, having banding on the tail is not at all unusual for adamanteus
Image

But they are never as contrasty as atrox
Image

-Kevin
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gbin
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by gbin »

It looks like an eastern diamondback to me.

On the picture's validity, I suppose it could be faked, but a number of social animal species are known to exhibit alarm displays at perceived threats that generally look very much like that, and I think I've heard of guinea fowl being one of those species. I do know people sometimes keep them as yard sentries.

Gerry
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Chris Smith
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by Chris Smith »

I agree that it looks like an EDB. If it is truly from Texas, it could be an escaped or released pet, stowaway, etc.

-Chris
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Jeff
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by Jeff »

The snake looks like it's dead to me. It's a little "tipped over" at mid-body and even at 400 magnification, the head is suspect. Just looks posed, IMO.
Of course ! With that crowd the snake would be in a defensive coil, not relaxed as if lawn-bathing.
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gbin
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by gbin »

I've had a few adult eastern diamondbacks more or less refuse to acknowledge my existence, continuing to crawl in their chosen direction and at a leisurely pace (seemingly nonchalantly, really) even when I put myself directly in their path and/or gently manipulated them a bit with my hook. On at least one such occasion I had the distinct impression that if I didn't move the snake was ultimately going to glide right between my legs. Memorably unnerving behavior, actually.

I'm not saying the picture is real (and I don't particularly care one way or another), but for my part I can believe that it is.

Gerry
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umop apisdn
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by umop apisdn »

The photo is old and used to be accompanied by a few more pictures as well as a short video.

100% EDB, unfortunately dead.
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lateralis
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by lateralis »

Image

I was made aware of this thread so I thought you might like to see this fine specimen...any guess as to my locale?
Cheers
Lat
Here's acloseup
Image

...oh and that snake with the Pea fowl sure looks like an EDB to me...
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Correcamino
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by Correcamino »

Brett,

I still think that may be a far eastern "desert phase" ruber. Really has that "lucasensis" look.(If ruber and atrox aren't really the same. lol, the only work that was done was from atrox inmainland Sonora, and ruber from directly across the gulf, lots of water between them. No work has been done in south central Cali where the ranges meet or come mighty close and the snakes are very confusing to look at)

Rich
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lateralis
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by lateralis »

Howdy Rich,

Yep, its a strange beast to be sure. I have never found a "desert phase" ruber to my knowledge, seen plenty of low desert ruber around WW and the flats between WW and Snow Creek and they all seem to be a pale color with little to no black around the dorsum. Most of the crotes I find in this particular area are WDB's as near as I can tell; color, pattern, attitude, etc...but as you said there is not a lot of work being done with regards to DNA. I have several specimens from various locations in the valley that are up for grabs if anyone decides to take a look at the DNA. The furthest west I have found atrox (what I believe to be an atrox, and if it were found in AZ everyone on this forum would say it was an atrox) was the foothills of the Santa Rosa Mtns. Now based off of location one would presume it was a ruber, but if you saw the animal (i'll try to find the pic) you would call it a WDB. You should see the helleri I found a year or so ago with Gunn, that snake was a dead ringer for one of your nice black Cerberus (it was one of the melanistic population up on the mountain). Jet black with NO pattern at all, completely black snake, and big! I'll try and find the pic and post that one as well. Maybe some graduate student can look at the DNA that I have and put together a good writeup, I would but my research is on Desert pupfish this time around.

Cheers
Brett
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sep11ie
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by sep11ie »

A friend of mine removed what I thought had to be a EDB from his property out about a hour and a half west of Houston. Said he saw a larger one just like it while he was doing yard work for someone near by him. He owns a lawn service so he sees all sorts of cool snakes.
WW**
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by WW** »

sep11ie wrote:A friend of mine removed what I thought had to be a EDB from his property out about a hour and a half west of Houston. Said he saw a larger one just like it while he was doing yard work for someone near by him. He owns a lawn service so he sees all sorts of cool snakes.
Hi,

I son't suppose there is a photo of that in existence? There seems to be a general consensus that the EDB in the opening picture with teh guinea fowl is an EDB despite the tail rings, but in the Facebook thread about the same photo, some very EDB-like WDBs (much more so than any posted here!) wre posted - just trying to follow this up fo rmy own amusemement ;)

WW
gabrielgartner
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by gabrielgartner »

You all are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole...dollars to donuts it's an EDB. I haven't seen anyone suggest that it might be an oddly colored C. basiliscus...seems more likely to me than a WDB. And everything about the snake in the photo suggests it is not C. ruber or any population of ruber.

I don't know, without better photos, my guess is as good as yours.

just my 2 cents.

gg
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sep11ie
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by sep11ie »

WW** wrote:
sep11ie wrote:A friend of mine removed what I thought had to be a EDB from his property out about a hour and a half west of Houston. Said he saw a larger one just like it while he was doing yard work for someone near by him. He owns a lawn service so he sees all sorts of cool snakes.
Hi,

I son't suppose there is a photo of that in existence? There seems to be a general consensus that the EDB in the opening picture with teh guinea fowl is an EDB despite the tail rings, but in the Facebook thread about the same photo, some very EDB-like WDBs (much more so than any posted here!) wre posted - just trying to follow this up fo rmy own amusemement ;)

WW
I'm waiting to hear back from him to see if he still has the pictures.
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Ross Padilla
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by Ross Padilla »

It doesn't look like a Western Diamondback to me at all. I'm surprised there was any kind of debate on it.
WW**
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by WW** »

Ross Padilla wrote:It doesn't look like a Western Diamondback to me at all. I'm surprised there was any kind of debate on it.
Agreed - the only thing that prompted me to raise the topic is that in that FB discussion, a couple of links to very EDB-like WDBs were posted, which I have not managed to find again since then...
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Ross Padilla
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by Ross Padilla »

WW** wrote:
Ross Padilla wrote:It doesn't look like a Western Diamondback to me at all. I'm surprised there was any kind of debate on it.
Agreed - the only thing that prompted me to raise the topic is that in that FB discussion, a couple of links to very EDB-like WDBs were posted, which I have not managed to find again since then...
Please post them if you ever find them. That would be interesting to see.
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Mike Pingleton
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by Mike Pingleton »

I'd go with EDB.

And I agree with TV - that snake is deceased. The large crowd of curious onlookers is a dead giveaway.

-Mike
thibbitts
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by thibbitts »

Here is one from pretty close to Houston.
http://www.inaturalist.org/observations/140988
Nothing says EDB to me in this individual or any of the others I've seen in Texas.

Toby Hibbitts
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Gluesenkamp
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by Gluesenkamp »

My $0.02: The snake is an EDB and is alive. The "ring of poultry" is a typical Guinea response* when they encounter live snakes (strangely, they are not so polite when they encounter a pile of cracked corn). The snake is probably raising a loop in response to avian knit-picking.

*My wild turkeys do the same thing when they encounter a hog-nosed snake.
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Gluesenkamp
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by Gluesenkamp »

Example of the "ring of poultry" can be found here:
http://www.inaturalist.org/observations/290348
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AndyO'Connor
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Re: EDB-like WDBs?

Post by AndyO'Connor »

I have seen some EDB-like atrox in other's pictures from trips to parts of TX as well, I believe the group including Tim W, Marisa, etc. saw one...

I know that the bird response is natural, and I know that some large crotes (I've seen the behavior in a large oreganus) will continue on with their business without getting defensive, but something about that pictures just seems to say to me "dead" and I agree it's EDB all the way. I will see if I can direct someone with better examples of what WW is looking for.
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