Spring Trip Pics

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Rancorrye
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Spring Trip Pics

Post by Rancorrye »

I'll get this started. Had a great time last weekend and it was nice to meet those of you I haven't before.

Now lets see those pictures!

The gopher Thomas found
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Brian Hinds spotted this guy
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Some of Brian Eager's finds
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One of the garters Cameron found
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And a few things I turned up
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These weren't from the trip, but found them on my way through Sanpete and Juab Counties the day after.
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bushmaster W30
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by bushmaster W30 »

The guys keep telling me that I didn't miss much not making the trip but I would have been extremely happy with most of the finds. Did you guys flip everything or cruise?
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Rancorrye
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Rancorrye »

Most were flipped, some out on the crawl.
Jimi
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Jimi »

Of the 4 milks, one (adult) was cruised and 3 (subadults) were flipped. One flipped per day. A lot of man-hours per flipped milk; probably about 20 man-hrs per milk if you averaged it all out. "This ain't Kansas, baby!" So many rocks where we were like "I can't BELIEVE there wasn't anything under this gorgeous perfect rock!" In great weather conditions, mostly, at great sites with great habitat. Rocks in gravel, rocks in sand, stacked tilted slabs, etc.

All the other snakes (about 3 gophers, a striped whipsnake, a couple racers, and something like maybe 8 wandering garters) were herped up - most were flipped (and mostly at just one site), and a few were walked.

Hopefully we'll see pics of the other milks. And maybe some other stuff - scorpions and what-not. There were lots of arthropods, which was pretty cool. And lots of lizards, which also helped keep the fun going.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Rancorrye
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Rancorrye »

4 milks??? Did Brian find one on Sunday too? I need to see pictures of Friday's finds since I missed out that day.

I've got a few scorpion and centipede pics I can post when I get home if I remember.
Brian Eagar
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Brian Eagar »

Note that conditions were not ideal for flipping Utah milks. The night time temps were too cold every day but Saturday night and Fundad is the only one that did any flipping sunday. The only thing we had going for us was soil moisture was good. Too good in many cases.
We would have had much better results if we hadn't been coming off such a cold spring overall the week before and such a hard cold front. Remember it froze the previous week for multiple days in northern Utah.
The fact that we didn't flip any other types of snakes on Friday and not much on Saturday either and the fact that we found zero sheds in all the flipping we did
all indicate the snakes hadn't quite come up for the year. (not just milks but racers, whipsnakes, gophers, etc).

Here's a flipping summary:
Friday - Thomas, Fundad and Jimi saw a gophersnake and a whipsnake on the crawl in the AM.
Brian E flipped a milk around 10 AM.

Saturday - Thomas, Fundad and Jimi saw a gophersnake and a whipsnake near burrows in the AM.
Brian E flipped a milk around noonish.
The group went higher in elevation and flipped several t. elegans and a baby racer.

In hindsite we should have gone to a lower elevation location on Saturday like we did on Friday (2000 feet lower to be exact) and I think we would have had more flipping success.
However my goal was to show people a wide variety of habitat and to hit as much range as possible in the short time we had.

Saturday night temps weren't ideal but good enough to get milks moving in the early PM and Rye cruised one.

Sunday around 10 AM Fundad flipped a milk then he left.

So although I am disappointed in the weather we had, I think we did dang good considering the circumstances and the late spring.
This Saturday and Sunday are much more favorable for flipping because the night time temps the previous days are high and the daytime highs will be low (70's).
I challenge any one of our group to return out there this weekend to some of the spots and habitat I showed you and see what you can turn up under more favorable conditions. I can't do it unfortunately.

BTW Rye, Nice pics. Good job on the road cruised milk when everyone else gave up.
simpleyork
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by simpleyork »

looks like a good trip. Once again I missed out. lol
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Rancorrye
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Rancorrye »

Thanks Brian. I wish I had time this weekend to head back out there, but unfortunately I can't either. Thanks for showing us around. Learned a lot from you guys.
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bushmaster W30
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by bushmaster W30 »

Flying back in the morning hopefully I'll be able to get out some before I head back to the field.
Jimi
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Jimi »

Yes Rye, nice job on the pics. I especially like the subadult milk from the housing-development site - I recall glancing across the road from "the position" (apelike grub-seeker...) and seeing you setting it up. You inspire the hopeless among us with your rapid skill development...

Yes Brian, spring was a couple weeks "behind" out there this year - a "climate-normalized" date might have been more like May 1. And, the weather on this particular weekend was zooming from hard freezes (high teens, even) the week before, right through "just about too hot" on Sunday. When I got home it was 90 degrees - ack. But actually walking around out there, the weather we experienced definitely felt just about right. Except Saturday afternoon was a little hot! Sunday was definitely rather hot.

Definitely agree that a lack of sheds was a dead giveaway that we were just too early. Need a little cold front to dial back those high temps. Tomorrow through Saturday could be the jackpot. Highs are supposed to drop about 20 degrees from the present.

Today's warm humid weather had me wishing I had more time this weekend, or that I could play hookey tomorrow. There might just be a little cruising window between the increasing moon and the cooling temps later this weekend. Maybe I can make a little time.

Cheers,
Jimi
TimCO
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by TimCO »

Awesome stuff guys. Looks you did very well, especially considering the weather. Kudos.
cameron.rognan
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by cameron.rognan »

Even though I didn't find much myself, I was thrilled to see a new species and happy that my son also enjoyed the trip. It was nice meeting some of you for the first time. Special thanks to Brian for leading the trip and helping us find a few milk snakes.

I added a few non-herp photos, since I also love birds. There was one notable find that other birders may appreciate. While looking under some rocky shelters, I noticed a medium-sized bird hiding in the shade. At closer inspection I could see that it was a Virginia rail. I have never seen one outside of an extremely wet and marshy area, let alone in the middle of the hot dry desert.

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Virginia Rail by cameronrognan, on Flickr

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Swainson's Hawk by cameronrognan, on Flickr

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Sanhill Crane by cameronrognan, on Flickr

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Utah Milk Snake by cameronrognan, on Flickr
Brian Eagar
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Brian Eagar »

Great shots Cameron!
What lens did you use for the milk shot?
That shot captured the beauty of that snake very well. Too bad you didn't get both red eyebrows though.
My camera has been having issues over the last year and is due for a replacement.
I'm looking at DSLR options and am just trying to narrow down what I want to use as a main lens.

Bushmaster, if you have some time to get out this weekend PM me and I'll give you some tips.
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Rancorrye
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Rancorrye »

Very nice indeed Cameron. I've never been much of a bird guy, but I can definitely appreciate those beautiful photos. Especially that hawk photo...Awesome!

My camera is still new to me and I'm still trying to figure out how to use it. I'm also curious what lens and the settings, if you don't mind sharing, for that milk shot. Just wanted to compare them to what I had set.

Rye
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Fundad
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Fundad »

I just got home late yesterday..

I will post a few pics and more details when I get a chance..

Thank you all for making me feel welcome. I had a great time meeting and herping with all of you Jimi, Rye (Congrats on your Milk, btw) :thumb: , Cameron, Thomas, and last but not least Brian.

Without Brian's vast and impressive knowledge milks in Utah, I would have struck out for sure.. Thank you for sharing your impressive knowledge of how to find them, after all he beat the four of us 2 to 0 in two days of flipping :shock: :beer: .

Thanks Again for showing me around your beautiful state gentlemen, as I had a great time.

Fundad
Brian Eagar
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Brian Eagar »

Here's a few pics I'm not too happy with. Overall I spent very little effort on photography on this trip and in hind sight I wish I had but I was too anxious to keep herping.

Here's the first milk I flipped at about 4800' in elevation in a dry gully with no surface water for some distance:
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We saw several short horned lizards on that day also:
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Here is habitat for both:
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I had seen this habitat and cruised near it but never tried flipping there until last Friday.
Finding one on my first attempt was awesome.

The next day I flipped this gophersnake:
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followed by this milk a few feet away in some very dry habitat very far from any surface water at about 5800':
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I really liked it's red eyebrows and wish I'd gotten some better shots. Oh well I'll just have to get back out there and find some more.
I had also scoped this habitat out previously and road cruised nearby but had never flipped anywhere near there until last Saturday.
It was about 20 miles from any that I know of being found out there before and I knew they had to be there so it was pretty gratifying to find one there on my first try.

I didn't bother road cruising Saturday night with the others. There wasn't really anything else I wanted to find anywhere I could road cruise.
It's so much cheaper and more satisfying to flip stuff anyway.
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by orionmystery »

Great set!
Jimi
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Jimi »

Yeah the cruising felt like it was gonna be pretty lame. Thomas and I did about 20 miles and bagged it. The fairly extensive pop-up t-storms of the day hadn't hit right where we cruised (and where Rye got his milk) but they had hit camp! Ah, wet sleeping bag after a hard day herping, very good for a needed rest! Ha ha ha...

This morning's drizzle has me in mind of what I was told (by someone with vastly more local experience than me) after we got back - that this could be a good time to hunt smooth greensnakes. Too bad I have to sod a yard...oh well. Somebody go get some!

Cheers,
Jimi
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Cole Grover
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Cole Grover »

Great stuff, guys! Love the milks, you know I do! Those are a couple of really nice looking animals. That Phrynosoma is pretty sweet, too. Do you find hernandesi to be abundant over that way? Their population density depends on the habitat here in Montana, but they can be locally abundant.

Cameron, that photo of the cranes is glorious.

-Cole
Jimi
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Jimi »

We had a rather surprising paucity of short-horns on our outing - seems like the group saw one or two at maybe half our stops. Other times and places in the Basin I've been gratified at their abundance. Literally stepping over them.

I would point out that - mostly - we were working loose fairly steep little slopes. Not so much sandy flats, although sometimes we had to cross over such to get to the slopes. In such walks i think a couple of us picked up "incidentals" like shorthorns and whiptails. One or two places, zillions of whiptails, ha ha.

Would like to hear others' short-horn experiences out there.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Rancorrye
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Rancorrye »

I stopped a few places on the drive home to look for some and didn't see any.
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Cole Grover
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Cole Grover »

Huh. Don't see them much in the hilly areas? They're most common in "sandy" areas, as opposed to rocky, pebble-rich areas or hardpan or alkali flats? What about vegetation density and composition?

Here's a few from my area, in fairly different habitats:
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Jimi
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Jimi »

Don't see them much in the hilly areas? They're most common in "sandy" areas, as opposed to rocky, pebble-rich areas or hardpan or alkali flats? What about vegetation density and composition?
I was only describing our (surprisingly few) encounters on this last outing. If you look at Brian's "grassy draw" habitat photo this thread, the one pictured above was in the bottom of that little draw, not out in the open but up it a little ways as I recall. I'd describe that site as sandy, alkaline or salty (something hostile to plants, anyway), and fairly beat up & weedy. The river (Green) is very close by. The whiptails were thick up top and I was surprised to not kick up any short-horns as I traversed the top headed for another draw (flipping being the prime directive, ha ha...).

But they (S-h liz's) tend to pop up in a lot of situations - diverse ones, I mean - for me. Mostly it's not super easy for me to just go find some; they're kind of like leopard lizards that way, for me. The situations where I have found them "easy", are typically pretty level, coarse-soiled, open-bunchgrass-and-shrub situations in valley bottoms, or on benches, or on bajadas (or whatever they call them here...). But I also see them high up in juniper woodlands with lots of rocks, among pretty tall &/or thick shrubs (sagebrush, greasewood, shadscale, rabbitbrush, etc...) esp. those with very little herbaceous understory (common in Utah...lots of munching mouths out there), and pretty much in anything else not truly forested, and not irrigated. Hilly areas? Sure. Pebbles? You bet, absolutely. Alkali flats? Hmm I think so - I don't spend much time in those (blah!), but...I recall a short-horn or 2.

I certainly haven't made a study of them. I think it could be very easy to craft a misleading picture for one's self by stringing together a few memorable anecdotes, that might more accurately reflect an intersection of e.g. favorable weather conditions du jour, or a short string of high-survival & -recruitment years, or a herper's bias - for certain times of day or year, or aesthetic or experiential situations (witness e.g. my dearth of alkali flat encounters), rather than "ideal habitat". (I'd say the same for any number of animals, but I digress. "Habitat, though important, is NOT everything.") Mainly, I think they're a successful and fairly ubiquitous generalist. I've definitely had days where I wasn't seeing any, then I saw a few of them for a little while, then I stopped seeing them again, all right in the same general area. Pattern, or mere happenstance? People sure like to see patterns, I try to remain aware of that and play my own devil's advocate. On the other hand, Fundad shared a hognose surface-activity temperature range with us that conformed very well to my less-attentive-to-detail history with that animal. Maybe somebody could give one for these lizards?

Others' experiences & opinions would be welcomed by all readers, I'm sure. This is only my 5th Utah spring, and I haven't put as much time into herping here as I have other facets of my life. Certainly not as much as I'd wish.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Cole Grover
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Cole Grover »

Jimi,

Thanks for the info! That's pretty much what we notice with them, here. I was under the impression that perhaps their habitat was narrower down your way, but apparently not! I see them in sand, on hardpan and alkali flats, around sandstone outcrops, on shale bluffs and bentonite hills, and on gravel. Everything from flat, flat, flat to hillsides at 45 degree or more. A sparse (under)growth does seem to be important, as does a source of Pogonomyrmex ants (though they'll readily take other genera and even other arthropods).

I'd also like it on the record that I apologize for derailing/sidetracking this thread. I spent a lot of time as an undergrad (and before and after that, just for shits and giggles) chasing these critters. They're top notch in my book.

-Cole
Brian Eagar
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Brian Eagar »

Hey Cole,
Short-horneds in Utah are very widespread and cover a very wide variety of habitats and elevations. From about 4500' to over 10,000 feet in elevation from grassy sandy/gravely areas like this one to hardpand to alkaline soil with a variety of shrubs and or trees. The most common thing I note across all habitats is actually some amount of grass and soil they can get into.
My youngest daughter actually caught her first one on this trip. I didn't even see it. All I saw was her pouncing on something and saying, "I got you". She understands what she can pounce on by the way.

The Uintah basin has a huge amount of habitat for them and they definitely aren't active all the time. I haven't nailed down a pattern for them but I spend little time trying to chase them also.
I seem to have the best success when its cloudy but other find them when its hot and sunny. I don't do a lot of hiking when its hot and sunny so I totally have some survey bias going there.
All the reports I hear from locals are that they are one of the most common lizards seen in the basin.

Glad you liked the milks. You should join us down here next time. Have you gotten any Montana milks this year?

Brian
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Fundad
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Fundad »

Speaking of Horned Lizards..

I found this one in Iron County.. The horns don't look like short-horned lizard horns?
Do I have the ID correct?
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I have come across horned lizards walking along roads in the gravel/shoulder area, especially when its partly Cloudy or when it its warm and cools down with afternoon clouds.

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AS found in the warm gravel along Hwy 20, and a cool day
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Fundad
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Cole Grover
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Cole Grover »

Brian and Brian,

Cool stuff, guys. Thanks for indulging me! I wish I could have been on that trip. I haven't noticed much in the way of activity variance depending on cloud cover, but there is (at least up here) a HUGE difference depending on the time of day. Phrynosoma around here seem to be most active from about 0900 to 1200 or 1300, then there's a lull in their activity until late afternoon (say 1600 or so). Of course, the times vary with the season, but they seem to avoid the hottest part of the day when the air temperatures can easily be in the 100F range and ground temps considerably higher. When they're "not active" during the mid-day, I've often seen them sheltering at the base of (or even in) Sagebrush (Artemisia) or Rabbitbush (Chrysothamnus). In one area where they're particularly abundant, they take shelter in Prairie Dog burrows.

Here's a habitat shot of one area I find them in regularly.
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Brian E.,

As I mentioned, I'd love to get down there to herp with you guys. I'm sure Dell would, too. We found the first milk of the year up here on Cinco de Mayo. She was a big, old brute of a female.
Brian Eagar
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Brian Eagar »

Hey Fundad,
That horned lizard of yours is a different species. It is the Desert Horned lizard (Phrynosoma platyrhinos) which is an egg layer vs. the short-horned which is a live bearer.
They are sympatric in some places but mostly the Desert horned lizards occupy the lower elevation desert habitats and the short-horneds occupy the higher foothill and mountain habitats.
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Fundad
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Fundad »

Thanks Brian,

Different Subspecies? Its a different species right?

6,088 ft, after looking at the horns closer, I thought that be the case..

Thanks for the clarification.
Fundad
Brian Eagar
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Re: Spring Trip Pics

Post by Brian Eagar »

Yes different species. I don't know how that sub got on there. :?
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