Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

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VanAR
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR » May 10th, 2013, 5:29 am

I always thought that the metabolism of a reptile is directly related to temperature...
It is, but neuronal function isn't directly related to metabolic rate.
Comparing human choices to wild animal prey and predator relationship is irrational to me.
So do you choose to eat meat?

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc » May 10th, 2013, 7:03 am

Yes. I eat meat. Extra rare.

It keeps me from seeking the blood of the living

:sleep:

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gbin
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by gbin » May 10th, 2013, 7:05 am

Kelly Mc wrote:Comparing human choices to wild animal prey and predator relationship is irrational to me.
We should be clear, here. No one is advocating something like "Suffering is abundant in nature, so we should feel free to inflict however much suffering we want." No one is saying they want to inflict any suffering at all, either. We're just pointing out that suffering is indeed part of life and great suffering is often part of death; the elimination of suffering is purely a human idea and a rather fanciful one at that. Though some might aim for it, no one is ever going to achieve it. Far better, then, to aim for minimizing it while remaining practical.

Van, my mind used to conjure up images of that zebra and lioness, too. Now it's more likely to go to a story from a year or two ago, about a young woman who was attacked by brown bears while camping and who somehow managed to call her mother via her cell phone not once but a few times while she was actually being eaten by the bears. In the last call, at least, she managed to tell her helpless and horrified mother that the pain had subsided (shock, I suppose) and that she loved her...

If you gotta go - and we all do, sooner or later - you might as well do so with style! The pain will stop once and for all at some point, anyway.

Gerry

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc » May 10th, 2013, 7:47 am

It can just be some private choice we make. Some little extra effort or courtesy that maybe lets something smaller get a break.

Maybe try to have a little class as we go around as the messiest loudmouths on the planet.

Tamara D. McConnell
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Tamara D. McConnell » May 10th, 2013, 1:20 pm

Yes. I eat meat. Extra rare.

It keeps me from seeking the blood of the living
:beer:
I love this.

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-EJ
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by -EJ » May 10th, 2013, 3:00 pm

VanAR... I notice that you keep saying that the metamolism in a reptile is not directly related to the pain cycle... aren't the chemicals directly responsible for the pain governed by the reptiles metabolic rate...

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VanAR
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR » May 10th, 2013, 3:13 pm

VanAR... I notice that you keep saying that the metamolism in a reptile is not directly related to the pain cycle... aren't the chemicals directly responsible for the pain governed by the reptiles metabolic rate...
No. Neuronal action potentials are unaffected by metabolic rate. The sodium/potassium pump that establishes the ion concentration disequilibrium necessary for action potentials runs on ATP, so could be affected by metabolic rate, but even if that pump stops it still takes a large number of action potentials to exhaust the concentration disequilibrium. Similarly, the production of neurotransmitter and esterases used in synapses is likely dependent on metabolic rate, but each synapse has a massive store of both so they shouldn't be exhausted quickly. Cold will reduce the speed of action potentials and synapse signalling, simply due to direct thermal effects on action potentials and synapse function, not because of metabolic effects.

Think of it this way- if you numb your fingertip with ice, you are essentially using the cold to stop your neuronal function, but your metabolic rate is unchanged. If anything, your body's metabolism will probably increase in an effort to warm the chilled part of your body. True, ectotherms can't warm their bodies in this way, but the basic physiological principle of how cold effects neuron function remains the same.

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-EJ
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by -EJ » May 10th, 2013, 3:36 pm

I'm pretty sure that the any chemical cycle in herps is highly affected by temperature... Why would freezing be considered by many to be a humane way to put down a herp.

I would think that the availability of the ions and the activity of the ion pumps are highly reliant on temperature were herps are concerned... I guess I'm out of touch when I use the term metabolic rate...

Whatever... they way I understand it is that a decrease in temperature slows down the herp and all its bodily functions.

I really don't think we can compare physical reactions between herps and mammals... that's just me.
VanAR wrote:
VanAR... I notice that you keep saying that the metamolism in a reptile is not directly related to the pain cycle... aren't the chemicals directly responsible for the pain governed by the reptiles metabolic rate...
No. Neuronal action potentials are unaffected by metabolic rate. The sodium/potassium pump that establishes the ion concentration disequilibrium necessary for action potentials runs on ATP, so could be affected by metabolic rate, but even if that pump stops it still takes a large number of action potentials to exhaust the concentration disequilibrium. Similarly, the production of neurotransmitter and esterases used in synapses is likely dependent on metabolic rate, but each synapse has a massive store of both so they shouldn't be exhausted quickly. Cold will reduce the speed of action potentials and synapse signalling, simply due to direct thermal effects on action potentials and synapse function, not because of metabolic effects.

Think of it this way- if you numb your fingertip with ice, you are essentially using the cold to stop your neuronal function, but your metabolic rate is unchanged. If anything, your body's metabolism will probably increase in an effort to warm the chilled part of your body. True, ectotherms can't warm their bodies in this way, but the basic physiological principle of how cold effects neuron function remains the same.

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VanAR
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR » May 10th, 2013, 4:05 pm

I'm pretty sure that the any chemical cycle in herps is highly affected by temperature... Why would freezing be considered by many to be a humane way to put down a herp.

I would think that the availability of the ions and the activity of the ion pumps are highly reliant on temperature were herps are concerned... I guess I'm out of touch when I use the term metabolic rate...

Whatever... they way I understand it is that a decrease in temperature slows down the herp and all its bodily functions.
I'm not disagreeing. Metabolism, as well as other functions like neuron signals, are strongly related to temperature in all organisms. I'm just clarifying that not all functions are dependent on (or related to) metabolism.
I really don't think we can compare physical reactions between herps and mammals... that's just me.
Why not? Scientists and clinicians use non-mammals as models for humans and other mammals all the time- why can't we do the reverse in areas we know there are significant overlaps in physiological function? There are some specific areas of difference, in some functions, like endothermy, and in anatomy, but the basic biochemical, genetic, and physiological principles are largely the same across all animals. Neurons in particular function exactly the same in everything from a human to an earthworm.

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc » May 10th, 2013, 6:36 pm

VanAR wrote:

Why not? Scientists and clinicians use non-mammals as models for humans and other mammals all the time- why can't we do the reverse in areas we know there are significant overlaps in physiological function? There are some specific areas of difference, in some functions, like endothermy, and in anatomy, but the basic biochemical, genetic, and physiological principles are largely the same across all animals. Neurons in particular function exactly the same in everything from a human to an earthworm.

This is the best point of the whole thread.

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mywan
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by mywan » May 10th, 2013, 8:30 pm

VanAR wrote:Mywan- thanks for your take. Admittedly, I hadn't seen the term "superinfection" before, but after reading, it made sense that it was an infection caused by an antibiotic/antifungal-resistant strain.
The term "superinfection" is actually much more inclusive of all types of simultaneous infections or reinfection of the same cells of pathogenic variants. It was the association of antibiotics implied here that lead me to limit the meaning provided in the present context.
VanAR wrote:My skepticism however, was less technical than even your explanation. My understanding (perhaps flawed) of these types of "superinfections", even in humans, is that they have only been a major problem relatively recently with the advent of rampant overuse of antibiotics, especially as broad-spectrum cleaners in hospitals and other surgical facilities.
Nature has always been in an arms race of this same nature. It is part and parcel to the very concept of evolution to which all living organisms owe their existence. Prior to us developing antibiotics this arms race went on under our noses without our understanding. Penicillin, the first antibiotic safe for humans, occurred naturally in a mold. Today Penicillin is far less useful due to resistance.

It could be said that wide spread use of these antibiotics is the problem, but that is nothing new historically and occurred naturally as well. When some animal evolved a particularly effective defense against some pathogen then evolution dictates that this resistance would increase in the population over generations. As the majority of the total population became more and more resistant then the evolutionary pressure on the pathogen to circumvent this resistance increases. All this occurred naturally until what was a resistance no longer has any advantage (i.e., the resistance in the pathogenic population gains the upper hand), and any new method of resistance that evolves begins spreading through the population.

The "rampant overuse of antibiotics" merely mimics what happens naturally at a more rapid rate, and it only appears to be a recent phenomena since this is our first round of antibiotics where we get to see and understand what has been happening all along because our medicines are visibly losing their effectiveness.

Another interesting question is what happens when a population fails to develop an effective resistance to some pathogen. As this pathogen becomes more effective at killing the host population then those pathogenic variants that are less lethal has an advantage, since a dead host is not a host. If a pathogen wipes out its population of host it wipes itself out. A variant of the predator/prey relation applies to pathogens as well. That is why the vast majority of such organisms are in some form of symbiotic relationship with their host. So long as the host population is high and the pathogen population is low the advantage to a symbiotic relationship is lessened.
VanAR wrote:Is there any history, or any evidence, of antibiotic/antifungal-resistant strains in the pathogens of non-mammals? Perhaps naively, I'm assuming that many of these pathogens wouldn't encounter such antibiotics (I'm using that term generally here) frequently enough for there to be a strong selective pressure for resistant genes, even in captive reptile populations. On the other hand, Mader's book suggests that experiences like Mulebrother's are fairly common for fungal infections in reptiles.
Yes, loads of evidence. With farm animals and veterinarian antibiotic use here is an article:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369527400002411 wrote:Abstract
Globally, an estimated 50% of all antimicrobials serve veterinary purposes. Bacteria that inevitably develop antibiotic resistance in animals comprise food-borne pathogens, opportunistic pathogens and commensal bacteria. The same antibiotic resistance genes and gene transfer mechanisms can be found in the microfloras of animals and humans. Direct contact, food and water link animal and human habitats. The accumulation of resistant bacteria by the use of antibiotics in agriculture and veterinary medicine and the spread of such bacteria via agriculture and direct contamination are documented.
You mention non-mammals and reptiles in particular. Consider the Komodo dragon. Not only has Komodo dragons developed a resistance to a huge variety of bacteria, but has formed a symbiotic relation of sorts such that they actively support these bacteria to help kill prey bitten by them. Any pathogen dangerous to the health of Komodo dragons then by proxy become pathogens to the bacterial colonies they support.
VanAR wrote:Even under optimal circumstances, they're a bugger to get rid of completely, and it's not always clear which antifungal is most effective, or what dose should be used, which compounds the problem. That could lead to a greater probability of developing resistant strains in captivity.
Even if the resistant strains are limited to the hobbyist, and never make up a significant percentage of the total pathogenic population, you could still end up with strains that are more prevalent in the pet trade. Basically this results in a pathogenic variant that specializes in infecting hobbyist environments. We are playing a numbers game with our protocols. The more effective we, or any living organism, become at treating anything the more evolutionary pressure we put on pathogens to circumvent it. The more effective the pathogens become the more evolutionary pressure is placed on them to become less pathogenic.

The difficulty in treating these reptile infections may be due to killing off a lot of harmless microbes should have otherwise out-competed the pathogens. A new mouthwash designed specifically to avoid killing good bacteria appears to be particularly effective so far: http://www.dentistry.ucla.edu/news/new- ... f-the-past

Even if you could send every human pathogen into extinction new ones would evolve in a relatively few years. Nylon-eating bacteria (Flavobacterium) have evolved to eat nylon, which didn't even exist prior to 1935. Our best long term defense against bacteria is bacteria, and you actually need a good human microbiome of bacteria to remain alive and healthy. Their are more bacterial cells in and on you than your body contains and you require them to survive. For something interesting google "fecal transplant" sometime.

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gbin
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by gbin » May 10th, 2013, 9:00 pm

mywan wrote:... A new mouthwash designed specifically to avoid killing good bacteria appears to be particularly effective so far: http://www.dentistry.ucla.edu/news/new- ... f-the-past
As both someone who has had considerable issues with tooth decay all his life despite rigorous oral hygiene and someone who is always looking for possible cutting edge technology investments, I'm extremely intrigued by this. C3 Jian, Inc. apparently hasn't brought out a product or gone public yet, but when they do either or both they'll find me waiting to get involved. Thanks a lot for posting about them, mywan! (Sorry about the off-topic aside, but this is an incredibly cool tip.)

Kudos for doing such a great job laying out the pathogen-host arms race, too. :thumb:

Gerry

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Kelly Mc
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Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc » May 10th, 2013, 10:22 pm

I have done fecal tranplants - or version of it - in reptile care.

Both to re establish gut flora in reptiles recieving oral antibiotics, and starting hatchling chelonia to commense feeding in a timely manner, esp when the stall is a seasonal inopportune in box turtles when such babies would vanish fossorially in nature in what is still a wintering over mystery.

Mine wasnt like the fecal transplants done in human gastroenterology ( my partner is an endoscopy tech and has assisted in them)

What i do is make a suffusion of fecal material and water of a healthy adult - same species - it does not need to be the parents - even clean adult specimens in the same genus. With chelonia all that is needed is a comfortable shallow soak in the solution. Appetite comes sometimes as quick as 24 hrs.

A very tricky situation involving both batril and re establishing flora - was when a neo calyptratus developed respiratory infection. He was as small as a quarter body size - too tiny for injections - even if i could have mathematically diluted the batril to achieve an injectable dose, baby chameleons have virtually no muscle tissue to work with, and sensitive dermis risk of ulceration sub q too great. All i could do was give him the baytril orally. So i spaced it out - med/fecal suffusion/assist feeding of skinned lump of waxworm meat.

It worked.

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