Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Dedicated exclusively to field herping.

Moderator: Scott Waters

User avatar
KatiyaLilith
Posts: 42
Joined: May 29th, 2012, 11:37 am
Location: Irvine CA
Contact:

Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by KatiyaLilith »

Hello everyone,

I just want to share the unbelievable case of animal neglect and cruelty. The images taken from Crotalus - Rattlesnakes group on facebook (post by Jared Zellars):

"Has anyone ever seen anything like this? I have no idea what it is. I posted this snake a while back and it had a little bump underneath its eye. Well the bump grew and is now all over the body as well. My buddy has been treating it with baytril and has been putting a topical ointment on the bumps. Idk what more else we could do but I think it may be time to put this little girl down."

Image

" ... I posted this snake a while back and it had a little bump underneath its eye. Well the bump grew ....."

Image

-Jared Zellars (Needville, Texas)
https://www.facebook.com/jared.zellars

He has never took the snake to the vet and allowed it to basically suffer and rot to death, while he was playing snake doctor, posting pictures on facebook of him getting treated from venomous bites (like its a "Cool" thing) and discussing the situation with the neglected snake in rather humorous manner....deleting and ignoring any reasonable advices that people gave him.
There are several more snakes in his collection and I whould hate to see that happen again. This person has no respect or responsibility for the animals he keeps. If I was in Texas Id go kick his ignorant ass, but I'm rather far from there and quite honestly don't know the laws in that area. So I wanted to ask anyone in the Texas area if they know what can be done to stop this Jarred Zellars from inflicting pain and suffering on more snakes he keeps bringing home...
I'm sorry for the graphic images, they made me cry, but i have to let people know that this is going on because it is Unacceptable!

Image

He sure took himself to the doctor when he needed it

Image
fangmaster
Posts: 80
Joined: March 12th, 2011, 12:40 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by fangmaster »

As A reptile keeper, I am outraged by this! This type of thing gives groups like peta more ammunition to destroy our hobby, and way of life! Please people, take care of your animals, or at least refrain from keeping them if you can't do it right!
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR »

While it is a terrible situation for the snake, it's difficult to blame the entire problem on the owner's cruelty and neglect based only on hearsay from you. It's quite possible the guy doesn't live near a vet who is comfortable working with venomous snakes, particularly in rural parts of Texas. It would also be expensive, particularly if this guy is paying medical bills on his own snakebites. I agree with your general point that he probably shouldn't be keeping hots if he can't handle them safely or keep them healthy.

Fungal infections like this are also incredibly difficult to treat/cure. Even if caught early and treated with only minor epidermal symptoms, the infection can lay systemically dormant for years until something else compromises the immune system. Then the epidermal symptoms come roaring right back. All you can really do is give the animal repeated doses of oral/injectable fungicide, possibly with a topical antibiotic to prevent further infection. However, even that may not be successful, and it also means stressing the animal repeatedly to force-feed the meds. The stress doesn't help because it can compromise the immune system, and may negate any benefit of the anti-fungals if the dosages aren't correct (which can be difficult to judge, even for vets). The anti-fungals can also cause liver damage. Even with a competent vet's help, there are no guarantees that the outcome would have been any better.

Probably the best course of action would have been to euthanize it once the infection got so bad, but even that may be difficult to do humanely without a vet's help. Treating it with Baytril wasn't going to help because Baytril is an anti-bacterial rather than an anti-fungal, but vets who didn't know how to diagnose a fungal disease in snakes may have made the same recommendation.

Always bleach your tanks, cages, water bowls, and tools!
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

Hearsay? Its right in front of our eyes. As well as documented by the guy.

It IS his responsibility to make sure he has the ability to care for his animals and if he cant TRAVEL to a veterinarian that is able to treat these animals then he shouldnt have them.

He got the batril 4 everything idea probably from another clown on facebook or youtube - and probably caused a massive superinfection.

It is ENTIRELY HIS FAULT. If one of my animals has a problem - even an unshed toe - Its MY FAULT. Why? Because I am in control of everything that they recieve.

We worry about snake hating politicians and peta but fail to realize that a free for all mentality combined with social media is presenting THIS as herpetoculture to the world.

The OP was right to post this. We need to not enable this kind of activity with indifference.
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR »

Yes, hearsay. The photo the OP linked of the guy getting an IV was (according to his FB post) due to a throat bacterial infection, not a snakebite. After a few minutes of searching, I can't personally find any reference to this on his FB site, and the only discussion of it I see on the Crotalus page is very civil (and full of mistaken remarks about cypress mulch, which probably didn't cause this- reptile fungus did). I can't find the photo posted by the OP on facebook- was it deleted?
It IS his responsibility to make sure he has the ability to care for his animals and if he cant TRAVEL to a veterinarian that is able to treat these animals then he shouldnt have them.
In a perfect world, yes. In the real world, many vets won't have anything to do with a venomous snake. Still others know little about reptile medicine. Does that mean nobody living reasonably near their services, if no other vets are available, should ever keep a reptile?
He got the batril 4 everything idea probably from another clown on facebook or youtube - and probably caused a massive superinfection.
Not sure how an antibiotic can cause a "superinfection"? At least by trying to give an antibiotic, the guy was trying to do something, and wasn't just completely ignoring the problem. Mistaken? Sure.... Neglectful? Maybe, but I doubt it.
It is ENTIRELY HIS FAULT. If one of my animals has a problem - even an unshed toe - Its MY FAULT. Why? Because I am in control of everything that they recieve.
Newsflash- animals can get sick and die, sometimes despite our best intentions and precautions. Especially with reptiles, the cause may not be immediately obvious. Fungal infections in particular are horrible to deal with. If the animal was wildcaught, or was exposed to a pathogen before the guy got it, it could have laid dormant for years without him knowing until now. In reading more of his posts, its pretty clear that this guy tries to rehabilitate sick snakes that others have given up on. That doesn't sound neglectful to me, even if he isn't using the best methods. It also doesn't sound like the infection is his fault, ultimately.
We worry about snake hating politicians and peta but fail to realize that a free for all mentality combined with social media is presenting THIS as herpetoculture to the world.
I dunno. After a few minutes of searching I couldn't find the original FB post with the supposed controversy. I did see several posts from this guy about his trying to rehabilitate a number of sick snakes. Either way, I don't think it's going to be used as a tool for further persecution of herpetoculture.
The OP was right to post this. We need to not enable this kind of activity with indifference.
From what I can see on FB, the guy got advice to see a vet and agreed to do so, and everything was civil. The discussion the OP referenced may have been deleted. I'm not saying neglect/cruelty shouldn't be punished, but I'm not seeing where this is such a case.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

VanAR wrote:Yes, hearsay. The photo the OP linked of the guy getting an IV was (according to his FB post) due to a throat bacterial infection, not a snakebite. After a few minutes of searching, I can't personally find any reference to this on his FB site, and the only discussion of it I see on the Crotalus page is very civil (and full of mistaken remarks about cypress mulch, which probably didn't cause this- reptile fungus did). I can't find the photo posted by the OP on facebook- was it deleted?
It IS his responsibility to make sure he has the ability to care for his animals and if he cant TRAVEL to a veterinarian that is able to treat these animals then he shouldnt have them.
In a perfect world, yes. In the real world, many vets won't have anything to do with a venomous snake. Still others know little about reptile medicine. Does that mean nobody living reasonably near their services, if no other vets are available, should ever keep a reptile?
He got the batril 4 everything idea probably from another clown on facebook or youtube - and probably caused a massive superinfection.
Not sure how an antibiotic can cause a "superinfection"? At least by trying to give an antibiotic, the guy was trying to do something, and wasn't just completely ignoring the problem. Mistaken? Sure.... Neglectful? Maybe, but I doubt it.
It is ENTIRELY HIS FAULT. If one of my animals has a problem - even an unshed toe - Its MY FAULT. Why? Because I am in control of everything that they recieve.
Newsflash- animals can get sick and die, sometimes despite our best intentions and precautions. Especially with reptiles, the cause may not be immediately obvious. Fungal infections in particular are horrible to deal with. If the animal was wildcaught, or was exposed to a pathogen before the guy got it, it could have laid dormant for years without him knowing until now. In reading more of his posts, its pretty clear that this guy tries to rehabilitate sick snakes that others have given up on. That doesn't sound neglectful to me, even if he isn't using the best methods. It also doesn't sound like the infection is his fault, ultimately.
We worry about snake hating politicians and peta but fail to realize that a free for all mentality combined with social media is presenting THIS as herpetoculture to the world.
I dunno. After a few minutes of searching I couldn't find the original FB post with the supposed controversy. I did see several posts from this guy about his trying to rehabilitate a number of sick snakes. Either way, I don't think it's going to be used as a tool for further persecution of herpetoculture.
The OP was right to post this. We need to not enable this kind of activity with indifference.
From what I can see on FB, the guy got advice to see a vet and agreed to do so, and everything was civil. The discussion the OP referenced may have been deleted. I'm not saying neglect/cruelty shouldn't be punished, but I'm not seeing where this is such a case.

First off , if you are able to do microbial cultures with your eyeballs by looking at photos on the internet - wow very impressive.

Yeah - Baytril (and other misappropriated antibiotics) can cause superinfections - inclusive of those with a fungal agent, or component, as your superduper diagnostic vision has determined. So can Neosporin Ointment.

Nowhere in my particular post did i mention the medical picture or the snake bite thing. I could not care less about whether or not he was bitten.

Newsflash: people who "rescue" snakes should be able to detect when their needs surpass their capacities, and require veterinary care.


If an animal is in our possession its condition is our responsibility.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

So . . did you find out what a superinfection was yet? :P ;)
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR »

First off , if you are able to do microbial cultures with your eyeballs by looking at photos on the internet - wow very impressive.
I've seen a lot of them over the years in wild snakes. They're pretty distinctive, especially with his description of the lesion resembling a wart. Unfortunately, my super-duper diagnostic vision can't tell what type of fungus it is, darn it!
Yeah - Baytril (and other misappropriated antibiotics) can cause superinfections - inclusive of those with a fungal agent, or component, as your superduper diagnostic vision has determined. So can Neosporin Ointment.
Fair enough, but I doubt that a superinfection is the problem here, thanks to my super-duper diagnostic vision.
Nowhere in my particular post did i mention the medical picture or the snake bite thing. I could not care less about whether or not he was bitten.
No, you didn't. However, the OP did, and you seem to take everything the OP said as the gold truth. I find the OP's mistake/dishonesty as an indication that the rest of the story may not be exactly what the OP says it is. Hence, why I say the accusation is entirely hearsay at best and at worst could be a personal attack on this guy for no reason. I'm skeptical of witchhunts, because if the witchhunt is conducted without valid evidence then someone's reptuation/credibility is besmirched by mistake. In the social media age, that could have lasting effects on the person's life/career. Do you really want to be responsible for that?

Newsflash: people who "rescue" snakes should be able to detect when their needs surpass their capacities, and require veterinary care.

....which he seems to be doing. Again, I'm not seeing the problem given what is currently available on FB.
If an animal is in our possession its condition is our responsibility.
And what proof is there that this guy isn't taking said responsibility, aside from hearsay?
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

One item of proof is the extremis extent of the lesion presented in the snake.

Also - Often when an individual is familiar with a singular issue - ie: because they have seen it, or think that they have seen it, or if it is an issue currently wildfired over the internet, there is an automatic assumption that It Is That.

Example - cryptospiridosis in captive collections. Everything enteric is now Crypto! Even though there are scads of infections that present in the intestinal tract.

With amphibians - its chytrid.

In fish aquariums - its always "A PH Problem" lol

Etc.

I dont take for Gold what the OP stated. I looked saw a duck and said Duck.
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR »

One item of proof is the extremis extent of the lesion presented in the snake.
Which could happen even under the care of a vet who knew what they were doing. Fungal infections are very difficult to treat successfully.
Also - Often when an individual is familiar with a singular issue - ie: because they have seen it, or think that they have seen it, or if it is an issue currently wildfired over the internet, there is an automatic assumption that It Is That.
Read Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery. Fungal infections are one of the most common causes of necrotic dermatitis in reptiles, particularly when it persists after the animal is moved to clean conditions or appears suddenly in animals kept on otherwise dry/clean substrate.

Bacterial infections can occur secondarily (or be the primary cause in some cases), but in my experience usually clear up on their own once the fungus is dealt with.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

Please - tell us more . . all the cases you have diagnosed and cured

So that we may all benefit from your experience, and learn . .
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

VanAR wrote:
I doubt that a superinfection is the problem here,
Please elaborate!

With the information that was given about the snake and how it was treated that was my little guess. Oh and i suppose you know by now that a superinfection can be fungal in etiology. Oh of course you do, so sorry.

I would also like to hear some of the other ways you think the enthusiastic jayder person who makes the youtube videos, and so many others who do the same, benefits the standing and face of herpetoculture , so as to stay on topic.
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR »

I like how you get snippy when your self-righteousness is questioned.
I would also like to hear some of the other ways you think the enthusiastic jayder person who makes the youtube videos, and so many others who do the same, benefits the standing and face of herpetoculture , so as to stay on topic.
Never seen them, so I have no comment. How is that relevant to the case at hand again?
User avatar
muskiemagnet
Posts: 1253
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 8:43 am
Location: kaukauna, wi

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by muskiemagnet »

i love a good debate, however, i will chime in on one point.

i don't keep snakes, but if i did, i would not want that one anywhere near my healthy snakes. that infection looks pretty severe, and if cured, probably would leave the snake in a state where it would not be able to survive without human intervention. my opinion is that it should have been put down long ago. no need to risk spreading it if it is spreadable. sometimes people rehab for the feel good they get from it. when it is prolonged such as this situation, it is no longer for the snake. it becomes selfish. again. should have been put down.

VanAR, you mentioned humane euthanization may not be easy to do without a vets help. i've always put them in the freezer. they are cold-blooded, and just slow down until they can't slow down any more. if you feel that this is inhumane, please share why. it may be, and i'm not aware of it.

-ben
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

The condition of the snake warrants euthanasia and freezing can be a problem as tissues freeze from the outside in.

Even in line/or other chemical euthanasia can be problematic with snakes - and can take too long to effect in reptile bodies.

Ethical manual euthanasia includes proper (meaning precise not fkd up sloppy) decapitation and immediate pithing.

No matter what is wrong with the snake, which could be multiple , or even cancerous it is an arrow pointing to uninformed, untrained long term home treatments.
User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3312
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly Mc wrote:Newsflash: people who "rescue" snakes should be able to detect when their needs surpass their capacities, and require veterinary care.
What if the person rescuing the snakes can not afford veterinary care? Is it better to leave an animal in the home of a person who is outright neglecting it, or may just release it into the wild, or to put it in to the care of someone who at least knows the needs of the animals, and can attempt to treat the problems in some basic way? Not everyone who rescues animals has a degree in veterinary care. Not everyone who takes them in gets donations to help pay for their care. Sometimes we are just doing what we can to try to help out what ever animals we can. The alternative is to just euthanize them.
User avatar
Jared Cain
Posts: 221
Joined: September 18th, 2012, 7:39 pm
Location: FL/WV

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Jared Cain »

muskiemagnet wrote:i love a good debate, however, i will chime in on one point.

i don't keep snakes, but if i did, i would not want that one anywhere near my healthy snakes. that infection looks pretty severe, and if cured, probably would leave the snake in a state where it would not be able to survive without human intervention. my opinion is that it should have been put down long ago. no need to risk spreading it if it is spreadable. sometimes people rehab for the feel good they get from it. when it is prolonged such as this situation, it is no longer for the snake. it becomes selfish. again. should have been put down.

VanAR, you mentioned humane euthanization may not be easy to do without a vets help. i've always put them in the freezer. they are cold-blooded, and just slow down until they can't slow down any more. if you feel that this is inhumane, please share why. it may be, and i'm not aware of it.

-ben

It is inhumane to put a reptile in the freezer. We went over this in a chameleon forum where vets chimed in. They said something to the point of: The blood capillaries will freeze and bust before the animal is dead causing immense pain. They also said that decapitation is quicker but still the animal feels pain. They said if you cannot take the animal to a vet to be euthanized then the best way to put an animal down is crush its brain. Crushing the brain in a split second will cause no pain. With chameleons I have had with no hope I would take a brick and crush their heads. Its pretty brutal but its the best way other then taking it to a vet. Im sure its much easier with a small chameleon than a large venomous snake.

Its a shame the person let it get that bad :(
User avatar
muskiemagnet
Posts: 1253
Joined: June 11th, 2010, 8:43 am
Location: kaukauna, wi

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by muskiemagnet »

thanks jared, that makes sense.

-ben
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

A person "rescuing" and medically experimenting on animals they collect from other people, and withholding veterinary treatment, could go to prison if the animal were a dog or cat.

A general consensus is beginning to develop in the public, whether some people are geographically experiencing it or not, that reptiles should be treated the same.

This is a problem since snakes can live around 20 years or more and can easily be bred in fairly large numbers by anyone, and sold to anyone.

Reptiles can also linger with horrific physical problems, and tolerate medicinal mishandling of overdoses, improper administration and type.

There are terrible practices and misinformation being spread between people, and impacting animals.

This is a problem.
User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3312
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly Mc wrote:A person "rescuing" and medically experimenting on animals they collect from other people, and withholding veterinary treatment, could go to prison if the animal were a dog or cat.
There is a difference between experimenting, and treating the best way you know how. Also, with dogs and cats, there are plenty of shelters who can take in neglected dogs and cats and care for them, so it is not worth having them in the hands of people who can't handle them. My local shelter is not equipped to handle reptiles, and I started taking reptiles from them, because prior to that, they would euthanize all of them that came in. As more qualified groups appear to take care of reptiles, and more people start donating money to help fund such rescue groups in all areas, I would see levying some jail time for animal cruelty possibly, but that is not the case currently, and we have to make due with what we can when neglected animals are found.
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR »

It is inhumane to put a reptile in the freezer. We went over this in a chameleon forum where vets chimed in. They said something to the point of: The blood capillaries will freeze and bust before the animal is dead causing immense pain. They also said that decapitation is quicker but still the animal feels pain. They said if you cannot take the animal to a vet to be euthanized then the best way to put an animal down is crush its brain. Crushing the brain in a split second will cause no pain. With chameleons I have had with no hope I would take a brick and crush their heads. Its pretty brutal but its the best way other then taking it to a vet. Im sure its much easier with a small chameleon than a large venomous snake.
There is some debate on freezing as well. Even though the extremities can freeze before the animal loses consciousness, it isn't clear whether they can feel it. The reason is because the function of pain receptors and neurons slows as they cool, and stops completely once they freeze. It is possible that the animals do not feel their extremities freeze, and they will almost certainly lose consciousness before their core body temperature reaches 0 C. For snakes in particular, their elongate body form means that their head is essentially an extremity, and their high surface area:volume ratio means they will lose temperature relatively rapidly. That suggests their head/brain would freeze early relative to the rest of their body, accelerating euthanasia.

The argument against freezing often uses frostbite as an example of the pain freezing can cause when ice crystals form in the extremities. However, the pain that occurs with frostbite usually is most severe after the tissue re-thaws, which is something animals killed by freezing would not experience.

Personally, I'm still skeptical, and I much prefer chemical euthanasia (sodium pentobarbitol injection, isoflurane/halothane inhalation) or decapitation/pithing, but I know of a project to test this hypothesis using EEG scanners and an invasive vertebrate. Their reasoning is because the logic used to argue against freezing is not supported by data, and their experiment has been approved by their local animal ethics committee as a result.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

The troubling thing in this situation is its commonness.

If a person is going to be actively positioning themselves as a rescuer of animals and providing rehabilitative care - they need to be able to resource veterinary support or be solvent at a workable level of knowledge and application

The persons choices and actions in the animal shown, does not express this. Even the most basic of discernment at the inefficacy of the actions taken - were not present.

The line to draw with birds and mammals can be clear - the cessation of self grooming behaviors, appetite, vocal pain expressions, abnormal silence, immobility.

With reptiles i do not find it all that vague. For me when phenotypic details are morbidly affected or destroyed - foot lamellae, heat pits, or locomotion is altered so that normal movement incites fear (locomotion is not developmental in reptiles, all but the largest will not assess it as other than a chaotic vulnerability to predation.)

The bigger picture of this post is that there is no foundation of protocol, or propriety. So if one has venomous snakes, and no vet in sight, no ability to secure the right diagnostic tools, the appropriate medications, if the snakes they keep become ill and require invasive therapies, thats just too bad.

1. A little bit of knowledge can be a very destructive thing

2. First do no harm.






VanAR wrote: EEG scanners and an invasive vertebrate.
Whataya mean, like a bullfrog?
User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3312
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly Mc wrote:If a person is going to be actively positioning themselves as a rescuer of animals and providing rehabilitative care - they need to be able to resource veterinary support or be solvent at a workable level of knowledge and application
Again, what if there is no person who can provide veterinary care available? If you had to choose to either leave a snake in the care of a person who had no clue at all about their needs, or to give it to a person with a basic understanding of how to care for it, who might at least know how to treat some basic ailments, what would you choose?
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

I dont see that guy as having a basic understanding of how to treat ailments.

If i recieved somehow a call from someone in your area who needed snake help, I wouldnt mind suggesting they look you up, though.
User avatar
KatiyaLilith
Posts: 42
Joined: May 29th, 2012, 11:37 am
Location: Irvine CA
Contact:

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by KatiyaLilith »

If you cant provide proper care for you pets, you should not have them. There's no excuses. Its not a rescue if you just let the animal suffer and die while he or she may have been saved or at least be spared the pain and suffering. You don't adopt a sick child if you have no money or resources to treat him , how are snakes different? They are not some things you own and horde in buckets and should not be treated that way. It is illegal to neglect and mistreat a child, a dog or a cat, unfortunately there are no laws really about snakes but that does not make it ok.
User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3312
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Don Becker »

KatiyaLilith wrote:If you cant provide proper care for you pets, you should not have them.
I agree, but what if you are only able to provide proper care when they are healthy, or only have minor ailments?
Its not a rescue if you just let the animal suffer and die while he or she may have been saved or at least be spared the pain and suffering.
It is if you are at least making attempts to treat the animal. Proper care is not always available in areas. I had a chinchilla with tooth spurs years back. I called every vet I could and they all said they didn't treat chinchillas. They would handle tooth spurs on rabbits, and guinea pigs, but not chinchillas. The procedure was the same, but they wouldn't touch a chinchilla. And let's face it... some people just flat out refuse to euthanize animals.
You don't adopt a sick child if you have no money or resources to treat him , how are snakes different?
People don't release children into the wild if they can't take care of them either, but they do it all the time with pets. Snakes are also different because they can't talk to us and tell us what is wrong. We haven't devoted centuries of research into treating sicknesses in snakes. And while we may not allow a child to be adopted by a person who has no money and resources to treat them, they are often born to such people, and only taken away from them in extreme circumstances.
It is illegal to neglect and mistreat a child, a dog or a cat, unfortunately there are no laws really about snakes but that does not make it ok.
Again, if the man pictured really is taking in the animals from other people, all this anger should be directed towards the people who obtained them from. I know plenty of people volunteer to rescue animals. In my case I didn't volunteer to do it, it just started happening. I started doing programs about native snakes at a local nature center, and not long after my first program, people started randomly dropping off animals at the nature center. We do the best we can with the animals, and normally I can find homes for them, but sometimes an animal comes in that no one with any experience wants, so it may stay here for a while, and if it gets sick, I will treat it the best I can, but I am not paying for vet visits for an animal that was dropped off without me volunteering to take it. I have been taking in animals from our local animal control as well. Those ones I did volunteer for, but that is only because they city was just euthanizing them, even if they were healthy, because they didn't have the facilities to care for them while they tried to find them homes. Again, I find homes for them most of the time, but occassionaly there are animals that no one wants, and I will keep them here, and feed them using money from my own pocket. If they become ill, I will treat them the best I know how, but given that their fate was to be euthanized, I do not pay for vet visits. If they get to the point where I feel I can't treat them any longer, I euthanize them myself.

As has been said, snakes, well, herps in general are not dogs or cats. They aren't cute and cuddly. We don't have people donating millions of dollars to rescue organizations who can take in the animals and provide them top notch care with no expense spared. The new python ban prevents us from taking some snakes across state lines without a permit. Native animals may be legal in one state, but illegal in another. State and City animal ordinances ban keeping of many reptiles in many areas. Because of all these laws, it makes it even more difficult to find a person who is willing and capable of taking in a snake or other herp, and if the animal is sick, it's even harder. Rescuing animals is not all sunshine and roses, even PETA euthanizes many of the animals they take in. When you euthanize animals though, people will still complain.

If you guys really want to direct your anger somewhere, direct it at the breeders and sellers. I don't limit this to just breeders and sellers of herps, but breeders and sellers of dogs and cats too. There are too many of them in the hands of unqualified people. Small pythons are sold to people who can't fathom that it may end up 10ft long, let alone one that may end up 20ft long, just as Mastiff puppies are sold to people who have no clue how big those dogs really get. As you said, you would't adopt a child to a person who has no resources to care for it, but most pet stores will hand an animal to anyone who comes in with enough money, and the same goes for many private vendors as well.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

It may sound wildly unearthly, and politically incorrect, but perhaps fking over animals is so epically unsound that this problem will take care of itself in a mysterious way, cloaked in the mechanics of our human affairs.
User avatar
Mulebrother
Posts: 364
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:31 am
Location: A bunker near Mountainburg AR

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Mulebrother »

I'll just tag on to what Van has said... fungal infections are bad stuff and probably best treated by euthanasia. Thats my 10cents.
I had a trans pecos rat that picked up 'yellow fungus' from a w/c snake that i should have quarantined...my fault...but I took it to the vet, treated it with injections and topicals for 2 years and spent about $300 and guess what- it ended up looking like this and died.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

Mulebrother wrote:I'll just tag on to what Van has said... fungal infections are bad stuff and probably best treated by euthanasia. Thats my 10cents.
I had a trans pecos rat that picked up 'yellow fungus' from a w/c snake that i should have quarantined...my fault...but I took it to the vet, treated it with injections and topicals for 2 years and spent about $300 and guess what- it ended up looking like this and died.

Thats too bad. But it happens. $300 isnt bad for two years of treatment.

Alot of people spend that on a single sleeve tattoo, or getting the holes in their earlobes stretched bigger and bigger.

I have known people that spend that in a single month at the "medical"
marijuana store.

Ever wonder why doctors dont make diagnosis over the phone or pictures over the internet?
User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3312
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Don Becker »

Kelly Mc wrote:Ever wonder why doctors dont make diagnosis over the phone or pictures over the internet?
Actually they do. Just for basic stuff though. We have local hotlines you can call in and describe your symptoms, and if it's something minor, they will recommend an over the counter treatment.
User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 4:28 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by gbin »

Kelly Mc wrote:Alot of people spend that on a single sleeve tattoo, or getting the holes in their earlobes stretched bigger and bigger.
This is what boggles my mind, how people will toss money around quite frivolously in many respects, then begrudge their pets the cost of needed veterinary care. Some will act that way even with an animal for which they spent considerable money to purchase. It makes no sense.

I mean this as a general comment only, as I'm with those thinking we just don't know the real story behind what the OP brought to us well enough to be passing judgment on the fellow involved.

Gerry
User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3312
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Don Becker »

gbin wrote:
Kelly Mc wrote:Alot of people spend that on a single sleeve tattoo, or getting the holes in their earlobes stretched bigger and bigger.
This is what boggles my mind, how people will toss money around quite frivolously in many respects, then begrudge their pets the cost of needed veterinary care. Some will act that way even with an animal for which they spent considerable money to purchase. It makes no sense.
If only it stopped there. It baffles me that people are more worried about having a big TV and a smart phone than paying their rent. Heck, it baffles me that some people think it's more important to have and maintain a high end snake than to save the money and not live pay check to pay check. That is obviously a whole different discussion that goes outside the scope of this forum though.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

What do you think of the idea of getting a system in place where ill reptiles no one wants or can afford can be placed in university programs and veterinary colleges all over the states.

If it could be done, areas with few qualified rescue resources or exotics/arav veterinary services would have an outlet to fill the deficit and it would be an opportunity to increase body of knowledge, I know for a fact there are enough specimens and issues out there to create a huge amount of data. Would anyone have a problem with the ethics of that I wonder?
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

What I mean by that is a system of communication and transportation to those learning entities by the actual herp community, organizations and individuals.

A volunteer collective type thing.
User avatar
Don Becker
Posts: 3312
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:21 am
Location: Iowa
Contact:

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Don Becker »

I like that idea.
User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 4:28 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by gbin »

Seconded!

Gerry
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

Yeah? And Im sure some guys with resolved problems would be adopted by vet students, and maybe even some university policies could allow small reptiles to become dorm pets which would be a softening PR addendum.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

Mulebrother wrote:I'll just tag on to what Van has said... fungal infections are bad stuff and probably best treated by euthanasia. Thats my 10cents.
I had a trans pecos rat that picked up 'yellow fungus' from a w/c snake that i should have quarantined...my fault...but I took it to the vet, treated it with injections and topicals for 2 years and spent about $300 and guess what- it ended up looking like this and died.

Injections of what? When did this occur? This is an important disease, a verified case under observed captive care for so long is important data.
Could you post some photos of its progression?
User avatar
Mulebrother
Posts: 364
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:31 am
Location: A bunker near Mountainburg AR

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Mulebrother »

the injections were Itraconazole...dont remember the dosage, or frequency of them, but I did it over a span of about 2 years... and on my own, I tried putting several otc anitfungal ointments on it as well. Didnt take any pictures, but the infection was mostly on the head/neck- about 4 inches back, and pretty much stayed there. This was like 2008 i think. My vet sent off a culture to texas A&m and they id'd it as 'yellow fungus'. Sorry- i didnt keep notes or photograph the progression. It was up and down though...the meds would knock it back and I'd think it was on the road to recovery, then it would come back even worse. It was a bad deal...and I learned a good lesson about always quarantining animals before introducing them, wont make that mistake again.
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by -EJ »

Unfortunately... some of those diseases spread throughout a collection long before any outward signs develope... I know.

You know current thinking among vets is that freezing is inhumane... I disagree.
muskiemagnet wrote:i love a good debate, however, i will chime in on one point.

i don't keep snakes, but if i did, i would not want that one anywhere near my healthy snakes. that infection looks pretty severe, and if cured, probably would leave the snake in a state where it would not be able to survive without human intervention. my opinion is that it should have been put down long ago. no need to risk spreading it if it is spreadable. sometimes people rehab for the feel good they get from it. when it is prolonged such as this situation, it is no longer for the snake. it becomes selfish. again. should have been put down.

VanAR, you mentioned humane euthanization may not be easy to do without a vets help. i've always put them in the freezer. they are cold-blooded, and just slow down until they can't slow down any more. if you feel that this is inhumane, please share why. it may be, and i'm not aware of it.

-ben
User avatar
mywan
Posts: 195
Joined: August 31st, 2012, 4:24 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by mywan »

Kelly Mc wrote:
VanAR wrote:
I doubt that a superinfection is the problem here,
Please elaborate!
I can do this. Since a "superinfection" can involve a range of causal factors I will only deal with the subset of causal factors implied by implicating the use of antibiotics. This generally results when medication used to treat an infection is only partially successful. This allows a tiny subset of the infectious colony that is more resistant to the medication to live and breed a more resistant strain. Thus an infection that was initially in remission can return with a vengeance. Very much like what Mulebrother described with (I presume) his experience.

1) VanAR give a very reasonable opinion this was a fungal infection.
2) It was reported here that this condition was being treated with antibiotics.

Hence the treatment contained no mechanism of action on the fungal infection, thus no mechanism to induce a resistant strain. Under these assumptions the resistance was effectively complete at the outset since no mechanism for a new resistant strain exist when the resistance was a priori complete.

This doesn't mean the assumptions VanAR predicated his opinion on were 100% valid, but they were perfectly valid under the assumption he explicitly stated. In my opinion the probabilities are in VanAR's favor, but there are always exceptions to what is probable.

The situation Mulebrother dealt with is much more dangerous, especially given the intermediate remissions. I would suggest that attempting this, especially when failed, to be almost psychotically paranoid about sterilization. Even worse than failing to save your patient is introducing a newly created resistant infectious strain back into the wild that dooms others to failure as well. This would be my primary reason for considering euthanization when an infection returns following a remission. Then sterilize the corpse along with any quarantine equipment. This makes for good standard operating procedure regardless.
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR »

Mywan- thanks for your take. Admittedly, I hadn't seen the term "superinfection" before, but after reading, it made sense that it was an infection caused by an antibiotic/antifungal-resistant strain. My skepticism however, was less technical than even your explanation. My understanding (perhaps flawed) of these types of "superinfections", even in humans, is that they have only been a major problem relatively recently with the advent of rampant overuse of antibiotics, especially as broad-spectrum cleaners in hospitals and other surgical facilities. Is there any history, or any evidence, of antibiotic/antifungal-resistant strains in the pathogens of non-mammals? Perhaps naively, I'm assuming that many of these pathogens wouldn't encounter such antibiotics (I'm using that term generally here) frequently enough for there to be a strong selective pressure for resistant genes, even in captive reptile populations. On the other hand, Mader's book suggests that experiences like Mulebrother's are fairly common for fungal infections in reptiles. Even under optimal circumstances, they're a bugger to get rid of completely, and it's not always clear which antifungal is most effective, or what dose should be used, which compounds the problem. That could lead to a greater probability of developing resistant strains in captivity.

Van
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by -EJ »

I believe that as temperature drops metabolism drops to the point it becomes painless.

Vets believe that freezing crystalizes body tissue which, in humans/mammals they think is painful.

John Vanek wrote:
-EJ wrote: You know current thinking among vets is that freezing is inhumane... I disagree.
Why?
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

Perhaps you didnt read my posts - superinfections caused by antibiotics are often fungal, or compound.

Also - cancers frequently develop - with the exacerbated regeneration of cells affected by disease/s , with the ecdysis character in reptiles this has been noted especially.


It is very obvious that some of the posters have not personally experienced the enrofloxin fallout of what some of us call "The Baytril Years" when it was touted as a Miracle Cure and used heavyhandedly for everything, and nothing. My opinion that superinfection caused by baytril and the softening onslaught to corneum by petrolatum "full spectrum" ointment was important to include, as this situation - and specimens like this Are Commonly Encountered, by vets and by those who refer people to vets on a regular work day basis.

It is my opinion that no person unaware of what a superinfection is, should ever lay a needle on an animal.
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by -EJ »

ummm... am I mistaken?

It's no secret. Herps are poikilotherms... metabolism is based on temperature. It's a pretty simple concept. Todays veterinary medicine seems to be hinged on anthropmorphism and not actual science... I could be wrong...
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by -EJ »

I think so...

Hey... enlighten me.
John Vanek wrote:
-EJ wrote:ummm... am I mistaken?

It's no secret. Herps are poikilotherms... metabolism is based on temperature. It's a pretty simple concept. Todays veterinary medicine seems to be hinged on anthropmorphism and not actual science... I could be wrong...
Is pain related to metabolism?
User avatar
gbin
Posts: 2292
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 4:28 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by gbin »

VanAR wrote:... Is there any history, or any evidence, of antibiotic/antifungal-resistant strains in the pathogens of non-mammals?...
I'm pretty sure I've read of some such strains appearing in poultry. Of course, domestic livestock are far more overmedicated even than are humans. It makes for fatter profit margins, don't you know.
John Vanek wrote:What secret knowledge do you have that vets do not?
I've worked with quite a few vets over the years, and known many more (and considered some good friends). I'm sorry to say that I've fairly frequently encountered situations where vets pretend to knowledge they don't actually have. (This human malady isn't by any means unique to vets, though!) The key, of course, is looking past what they - or anyone, for that matter - say and instead focus on what data and observations say.

So far as mere personal testimony goes, while growing up in the north country it was considered common knowledge among the folks around me that freezing to death was a relatively painless way for humans to go (and I've always hoped so, for the sake of the friend I lost in such a manner) - and I can speak from at least a bit of personal experience that the pain associated with frostbite occurs when the affected tissue is being thawed, not frozen, as Van mentioned earlier. (Though even very painful sensation is much better than no sensation at all at that point.) But...

... What do the bulk of data and observations say?

I believe people are becoming too focused on trying to prevent any and all suffering, in any event. (And I recognize the profit motive for vets to insist that the only humane way to euthanize an animal is some method more or less only available to vets, too.) We should try to minimize it as much as we reasonably can, absolutely, but at the same time we should recognize that suffering is a fact of life and the norm rather than the exception when it comes to death ("nature red in tooth and claw"), and it's foolish to think we can ever eliminate it. I say if you need to dispatch an animal, just make sure you do so in a manner that is very quick and sure (I like decapitation/pithing, again as Van mentioned earlier); save the extra effort and expense of a guaranteed painless death for loved ones (be they human or otherwise).

Gerry
User avatar
VanAR
Posts: 590
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by VanAR »

Is pain related to metabolism?
Pain is related to temperature, but not directly via metabolism. Action potentials (the changes in voltage that transmit information down neurons) work via the rapid fluxes of sodium and potassium ions into and out of neurons. Most motor/sensory neurons connect to one another via synapses, which rely on the diffusion of both neurotransmitters and neurotransmitter esterases, which "clean out" the neurotransmitter. In all of those cases, the movement of the ions, neurotransmitter, and esterases is via simple diffusion, the speed of which is proportional to the temperature of the tissue, as is brownian motion.

Furthermore, the sodium/potassium pumps that establish the ion disequilibrium necessary for action potentials to occur, as well as the channels that allow their diffusion during an AP, are also temperature-dependent.

The sum of all this together, is that neuronal function decreases with temperature, and stops completely when frozen. Based on basic physiology, there should be little or no pain associated with the act of freezing. Alternatively, the thawing of frozen tissue allows neurons to re-activate, and often causes pain because ice crystallization in the pain receptor cells (as well as most of the cells in general) causes them to burst.
I'm pretty sure I've read of some such strains appearing in poultry. Of course, domestic livestock are far more overmedicated even than are humans. It makes for fatter profit margins, don't you know.
That makes sense. I should have clarified- in wild/semi-wild non-mammalian vertebrates.
We should try to minimize it as much as we reasonably can, absolutely, but at the same time we should recognize that suffering is a fact of life and the norm rather than the exception when it comes to death ("nature red in tooth and claw"), and it's foolish to think we can ever eliminate it.
Absolutely. Every time I hear someone speak of animal "torture" at the hands of otherwise well-meaning humans I can't help but think of the zebra/wildebeast that slowly dies as a lioness eats its way into its body cavity via the anus.
User avatar
Kelly Mc
Posts: 4529
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 1:03 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by Kelly Mc »

Comparing human choices to wild animal prey and predator relationship is irrational to me.


The neural and ionic electrical realities of pain explained are very well poised and sciencey.

Another perspective is actually looking closely at a reptile that has been put in the freezer for this purpose.

Very often - not always - but often - they are not in a position of "peaceful repose" but are contorted in bodily countenence. Hardening fascia and blood vessels splintering seems to hurt some.

Well meaning people like to be distanced from certain realities - and they like it when its Easy.

I often think about what happens to all those half baked morphs - the ones it takes to make The Desirable Ones, or the failed and no longer in vogue ones , as well as the occasional mysterious non thrivers in the racks of big breeders. Do they continue to feed them for years, medicate and rehab them when they are an inexpensive common in minions species - eroding the profit margins that could be dedicated to their awesome marketing strategy videos and posh websites - out of the goodness of their snake lovin hearts?


I wonder what goes on in those freezers sometimes.
User avatar
-EJ
Posts: 1078
Joined: June 10th, 2010, 12:17 pm

Re: Texas: animal cruelty and neglect report

Post by -EJ »

I always thought that the metabolism of a reptile is directly related to temperature...
Post Reply