Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

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M.J.FRANETOVICH
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by M.J.FRANETOVICH »

I see a lot of speculation in this post, thanks for your opinion, but thats all it is, is an opinion. Had I not just made a post on Arizona I would not care, But I felt a little attacked. I in no way DIVULGED any locality of any species in my post nor would I in a PM..... I have put a lot of time and work in to what I do, and I dont share because of Poachers. So If I mistook you Im sorry, but I dont think I did. I sensed a lot of arrogance :roll:

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Mel :beer:
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by devlin »

I in no way DIVULGED any locality of any species in my post nor would I in a PM..... I have put a lot of time and work in to what I do, and I dont share because of Poachers. So If I mistook you Im sorry, but I dont think I did. I sensed a lot of arrogance :roll:

><)))%>
Mel :beer:[/quote]

DITTO!
Some of us are lucky to get away for 5-7 days. We dont have the luxury of exploring. So, we cram our @$$#$ off before we go. And we get to see, what we get to see. Simple as that. It's not hard to research what your trying to achieve. If that means some places get "Found out", well, that's just the way it is. As long as there is no destruction, or poaching, or divulgence, What's the prob?
I know everyone I was with, is VERY respectful in all those depts.
I thought this forum was for sharing what you find, with like-minded people?
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Fundad
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Fundad »

I thought this forum was for sharing what you find, with like-minded people?

It is, but is everyone that reads your posts, "like-minded"?

Really Paul is just saying use some discernment.. He didn't attack anyone.. (thats what I got out of it anyway)

Fundad

Heck I think I have commented on everyone of the AZ posts with props..
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Biker Dave
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Biker Dave »

I am a Resident Arizonan (I refuse to call myself a 'Zonie). I understand everyone who saves up all year to make that one week pilgrimage to herp Arizona. Believe me, I feel the same way just to herp for a weekend in SE AZ and I'm only 3-4 hours away.

I think Paul was just being passionate about his feelings toward protecting AZ herps from the vacuum collectors (aka poachers). I dont think he meant personal insult to anyone.

But as reference... it is a pretty good idea to wait a few weeks before posting a big email about your trip. That just helps to throw the vacuums off the trail and make their life more difficult.

My two cents

Dave Weber
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azatrox
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by azatrox »

Well stated Paul....discretion and good judgement never hurt anything.

-Kris
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M.J.FRANETOVICH
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by M.J.FRANETOVICH »

OK!! Paul maybe you are expressing genuine concern for conservation of habitat and wild life, if thats the case again I apologise and we have something in common. Its just that a few of your statements where insinuating something different. :?:

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Mel
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DesertZone
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by DesertZone »

I have yet to read where someone gave away grave info on a herp on this forum. People that realy want to find something will. There is lots of good info out there that is free to the public if they are willing to find it. Most people here are very respectful and give good advice to new and old herpers alike.
Just becauce one person finds something in an area does not mean the next will and I see no problem with posting pics as soon as one would like to.
Most people that are willing to spends hundreds or thousands of dollars to make the trip to arizona for herping most likely are not new to the game. The probably have a good understanding of where and when to find things. The spend money and help support the locals. As long as they obey the laws of Arizona they have just as much right as the person that lives there.

Poachers are responsible for thier own actions, not us.

PS thanks for your concern and I will remember your advice next time I am in AZ.
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azatrox
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by azatrox »

"Most people here are very respectful and give good advice to new and old herpers alike."

You're assuming that "most people" that view and lurk here are decent law abiding folk...Wile I'll go so far as to say that most of the people that POST here are exactly that, you cannot conceivably say with any degree of certainty that most that come here are ethical people. That's a big, unfounded assumption.

"Just becauce one person finds something in an area does not mean the next will and I see no problem with posting pics as soon as one would like to.

No one said that was the case. But unethical people DO scour this and other forums for any little nugget of info that will help them achieve their nefarious goals. Why help them?

"Most people that are willing to spends hundreds or thousands of dollars to make the trip to arizona for herping most likely are not new to the game.

Yep...exactly right...and most douchebags that collect everything they see know exactly who to talk to and where to go, thanks in part to "in season" picture posting. It isn't the root of the problem, but it doesn't help either. Many poachers are willing to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars because they'll collect everything they see in an effort to make a profit on their venture.

"Poachers are responsible for thier own actions, not us."

True, but WE (as responsible herpers) are at least partially responsible for the welfare of the habitats and animals we love. What is so hard to understand about that?

-Kris
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DesertZone
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by DesertZone »

Then what is the forum for?
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DesertZone
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by DesertZone »

If posting pics is so bad then maybe we should have a 6 month hold before posting pics?
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DesertZone
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by DesertZone »

azatrox wrote:"Most people here are very respectful and give good advice to new and old herpers alike."

You're assuming that "most people" that view and lurk here are decent law abiding folk...Wile I'll go so far as to say that most of the people that POST here are exactly that, you cannot conceivably say with any degree of certainty that most that come here are ethical people. That's a big, unfounded assumption.

-Kris
I assume everyone innocent until proven guilty.

I am not trying to cause a problem, just defending the good people of this forum. I felt like this thread was putting down people from other states slightly.

What recent post is cause for concern?
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Fundad
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Fundad »

I felt like this thread was putting down people from other states slightly.
Noone put anyone down, just use some discretion when posting..

Fundad
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azatrox
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by azatrox »

DesertZone...

"If posting pics is so bad then maybe we should have a 6 month hold before posting pics?"

Not a bad idea AT ALL!!!!

Assuming we scrape all the personal BS off this thing, it amazes me that on the one side we have people advocating discretion and erring on the side of conservation, and on the other we have other people that are basically saying "I'm not going to do that until you prove to me empirically that it makes a difference."

Astonishing....What's the alternative? Give up every single spot and post every single pic as soon as it's taken?

No one is saying don't come to Arizona...No one is saying don't take pictures...Truth is, I recently acted as somewhat of a guide to some friends that came here from Ohio and had never been to Arizona before...Their primary interest was Crotalus, but they were excited to see just about everything we saw...(but the exhuberance for C. atrox was understandably dampened a bit by the 5,000th animal! LOL) Now, we didn't go to any uber-sensitive spots but we saw everything from cerberus to lepidus and everything in between....

They didn't run back to Ohio and vomit up a bunch of pictures on public forums (this one or any other). That's why I was comfortable showing them around a bit....They're friends and I trust them not to compromise the welfare of the animals...and they didn't.

If one wants to be skeptical that their behavior has a damaging effect on animals, fine....awesome...right on...but I encourage those that are to at least give creedence to the idea that it is possible before dismissing the idea outright. For me, because it is possible I will defer doing something that has potentially bad consequences until such time as there are none (i.e. posting pics in December rather than August). The pictures are the same, and it doesn't change what was or wasn't seen.

Also, this idea that everyone here from out of state plans their trips irrespective of what they see on the forums is a crock. Firstly, no one has any control over who views these forums (or any other public forum for that matter) nor do they have any control over where these people live. Yes, many people do plan out their trips WAY ahead of time...but some of the "less than ethical" people don't. Some of these "less than ethical" people aren't even from out of state! It is completely conceivable (and even likely) that some of those that would poach a Gila or willardi or lepidus wouldn't need more than a day's drive to get to where they could find a few. If they're planning on illegally poaching their find(s), then they'll more than make up the cost of the trip by selling their ill gotten animals.

That's my take on it and why I will no longer post in season photos...I've done so in the past, but will not do so any longer. If you choose to do so, that's your decision....We'll agree to disagree on the subject.

-Kris
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DesertZone
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by DesertZone »

azatrox wrote: Assuming we scrape all the personal BS off this thing, it amazes me that on the one side we have people advocating discretion and erring on the side of conservation, and on the other we have other people that are basically saying "I'm not going to do that until you prove to me empirically that it makes a difference."

Astonishing....What's the alternative? Give up every single spot and post every single pic as soon as it's taken?

-Kris
I understand everyones concern. Poaching is a problem and respect for an area is a must. I have not kept any wild caught pets for years except a few I bred or let go later in the same spot. I don't flip anything I can't put right back, I have never like to flip. I also follow all the local laws. Just so people understand I'm not for any bad behavior.
On the other hand I don't see where posting a pic of an animal is going to make that much of a differents, unless they give away direct info on where it was found. But to post a pic of a herp and say what county it was found in I think people go a little far with that. How is posting pics from last year in an area and showing all the good finds any different than showing off the same animals from this year.

Just my OP, I will let it go. :)
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Brandon La Forest
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brandon La Forest »

Just kinda curious, why does anyone post pictures? its not like a possed picture of an animal is going to somehow provide some important data. Really people post pictures because they feel like they deserve some kind of recognition and props for finding some snakes..there is no good reason for posting pictures except someones deep concided desire to feel good about themselves by obtaining recognition from others. All this arguing about why not to post pictures but where is the actual justification for doing so in the first place? In the end (in most cases) its just a way for people to get their egos stroked...thoughts?

-B-
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Ridge Walker »

Brandon La Forest wrote:Just kinda curious, why does anyone post pictures? its not like a possed picture of an animal is going to somehow provide some important data. Really people post pictures because they feel like they deserve some kind of recognition and props for finding some snakes..there is no good reason for posting pictures except someones deep concided desire to feel good about themselves by obtaining recognition from others. All this arguing about why not to post pictures but where is the actual justification for doing so in the first place? In the end (in most cases) its just a way for people to get their egos stroked...thoughts?

-B-
Ego, I'm sure, does comes into play to some degree. Who doesn't like to feel they're good at their hobby? BUT, for many including myself, there is an interest in photography that goes along with the interest in herping. If you're interested in photography you are naturally going to want to share your photos with other people. Especially other people that are also into herping. Artists, musicians and writers also share with people that are interested in what they do.

RW
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Brandon La Forest
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brandon La Forest »

good I took a far right (or left) stance just to see what others think, i like that... however im into photography and I dont feel the need to share it with the world...
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sauceman
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by sauceman »

Brandon La Forest wrote:Just kinda curious, why does anyone post pictures? its not like a possed picture of an animal is going to somehow provide some important data. Really people post pictures because they feel like they deserve some kind of recognition and props for finding some snakes..there is no good reason for posting pictures except someones deep concided desire to feel good about themselves by obtaining recognition from others. All this arguing about why not to post pictures but where is the actual justification for doing so in the first place? In the end (in most cases) its just a way for people to get their egos stroked...thoughts?

-B-
I like to photograph herps. I like to look at other people's photos of herps they find. I appreciate that there are places where I can look at other people's finds and the ways that they present them through photography. I get to see great pictures of beautiful animals that I may not ever even have a chance to see in person. I get to see examples of variation in the animals that I do find myself. These activities would not be much fun if there weren't groups who contribute photos. I contribute mine and enjoy other people's. I thought that was a part of what this place is for.

I have seen other people's photos which inspired me or made me wonder about technique and composition. Through PMs, I have asked those people for advice, opinions on equipment, etc. In turn, I have shared my opinions and experiences with photography with others who have asked me questions. It would be a lie for me to say that it doesn't make me feel good in a way when people give me positive feedback about my photos. There's nothing wrong with that, it is encouragement. I also frequently compliment people on their photos and what I like about them which helps other people hone their skills.

That's why I post.
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sauceman
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by sauceman »

Another question for the thread...

I include the county an animal was found in when I post. I thought that was the appropriate amount of info. I have NEVER included anything more than that. It appears that may be considered too far in this group. Is it the general consensus here that noting the county is going too far? I ask because I want to post appropriately here and not ruffle feathers. I certainly care deeply about protecting spots and animals but I honestly felt that listing a county was not specific enough to cause any harm.
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by dezertwerx »

I can personally understand the reason for this topic to come up... and I agree with many of your points.

If we truly enjoy going out and seeing lots of herps and beautiful habitat.... then we are fools to lead others to it. Voluntarily or involuntarily....

I am one of the people that posted their trips and wasn't at all upset to see this... I also realize that we are not all on this site with good intentions. I have however met some great people through this site and would hate to make it any easier for those lurkers and over-collectors.

I consider myself a Californian.... but also share a residence in Yuma county with some friends. And I don't think its a matter of where you reside but common sense. If you read this thread, ignoring the hint of arrogance :D ... the point is a very good one... and I for one have no problem waiting a few months to post some pics of a trip.

I do not agree with getting on people about sharing their pics however... this site has attracted many of us for the same reason and I TOTALLY agree with sauceman. :thumb:


At the end of the day what Paul was getting at makes sense and will only make all of our next herping trips more enjoyable.
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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Quoted below is part of what Paul started this thread with. I'm going to address this point first...

"For the "AZ Herpers":
Yes, there are several post as of late with everyone fighting to get to the computer first and post their pics from their trip. This has many of you shaking their heads including myself. There is a reason that you DONT see (Hardly) post by Arizonians. It's simple. Arizonains know how privilaged they are to live in such a wonderfull herp mecca. We also know how fast (over night in some cases) a canyon, road, or even an entire mountain range can be exploited in so many ways. Most of us have been severly burned, lied too, and stabbed in the back sharing with others. For many of us we dug out the map books, studied life histories of animals we have interest in and did the grunt work. Some of the species we are interested in took years to figure out how to find them. The majority of hardcore AZ natives find far more rare and secrative herps than anyone of these post put toghether. We take for granted how good we have it and WE KNOW how GOOD we have it. We also for the most part stay away from the well known areas. The areas that are being swarmed daily for the past couple weeks. The ones being posted right now. If we want to go somewhere and find certain herp, we can and not see anyone else. We have the choice and knowledge where to go. We know what to expect if we decide to try a well known spot. It goes without saying that anyone who has a spot of their own or shares with a few selected trusted people (People that found the same sopt on their own!) to keep it that way. We know what happens when we don't. It will be on here next week. All the hard work gone just like that."

I know Paul and the other herpers from AZ that have posted on this thread and I have to say I agree with the sentiment here. When I see a big post on an AZ trip with all the photos, time, weather, and locales, I usually cringe a little. But this is a bigger situation than just this one sentiment. I'm the AZ Chapter pres. and moderator of this forum. It's part of my job to work for the AZ Chapter and this forum, and also to be the education specialist. I can't condone no posts at all. In that case we'd have no forum and might as well not have any chapter. Participation in the Chapter is a sticky wicket. My biggest problem has always been how to promote participation without offending people. What is the best way to participate?

I know what Paul and the others are getting at. In our excitement we often give information that can help others find our spots and herps. It isn't necessarily the problem with poachers or commercial collectors. They have their own methods and they'll get their share no matter what we do. But there are many lurkers on these forums, folks who innocently gather info, so that they can participate in the great herping adventure and see all the same herps that the big boys do. The problem is the diffusion of information, imho. The solution is to put the lid on the info leaks. One way is to not give any info at all. But like I said before I don't want to shut down the forum or the Chapter. So, we walk a tight line when we post.

I don't want to discourage folks from posting. I want to know who's out there reading these posts and herping in AZ. I'd like to know what things they're seeing and have them participate with the Chapter in some way. But I also agree that we sometimes give too much info. I don't have the right to tell folks exactly what they can post, but we can discuss the situation, as we're doing now. We do have the right to try to discourage folks from posting certain types of info.

I remember when this AZ Chapter first started, way before the big crash. I had just moved to AZ and was really excited about working with my favorite AZ reptile, the green ratsnake. My first big mistake was mentioning my favorite road to look for green rats. That was a mistake that didn't help me make friends with the AZ guys. I've since seen so much traffic on that road that I don't even bother to check it at all during monsoon season anymore. Just think about White Water. These days I hardly mention green rats anymore, and although I see plenty of them, I don't talk about it much. It is one of those species that attracts attention. If I were to make a big deal out of the rats I see, we'd have tons of folks trying to find my spots and find out when I'm seeing them. As it is, I get lots of phone calls from folks that want to know exactly where and when to go. It's not easy to skirt these issues, but we try not to give any specific info, just the well-known, common facts that lets an unknown herper have the same chance as any other herper with little experience. Mostly we're talking info that's in the field guides. Yes, they are in the Sky Islands, and yes they are active during the summer months. See what I mean.

I like to see some activity on the forums. I've been surprised to see so much activity this summer. Personally, I've been too busy to post much myself, but I was thinking of starting a thread on my most recent trips, but then I'm not in too much of a hurry, because if I did I'd be giving a pretty good location and exactly which herps are active right now. One of the problems is that we like to find rarely seen herps, because that is news to everyone and we are excited when we make good finds. I'd love to post the rare herps I've seen, the lifers, etc, but I also want to keep the info I leak general, and not really helpful for the casual herper that's willing to drive hundreds of miles just to hit a certain road for a night or two. I think that's what Paul and others are getting at.

So, here's my solution. I'd like to post pics of herps I've seen, but I want to do it in a way that's protective of everyones' rights, the environment, and the herps. If I post a certain animal right now and give a county, everyone is going to know exactly where to go and when. The reason is because rarely seen animals have specific habitat and locations. That's why folks come to s.e. AZ during monsoon season. They know where rare herps are found, in general. They know the Mexican specialties are found along the border. But when you say I'm finding them right now, then that's where they'll head. So, I might post the pics of cool herps I've seen, or even habitat of the lush vegetation this year, but I'll probably do it in a way and a time that doesn't give alerting info. One of these days, probably after the monsoon season, I post some monsoon pics. If I do post pics right now I probably won't give even the county, and I won't likely post pics of any controversial animals, such as the green rat.

The question of whether it is ok to post the county or the mountain range, etc, is interesting. I think part of it has to do with when you're posting. For instance, I could post a pic of a green rat sometime in January and say this one is from the Santa Rita Mountains. Anyone who knows a little about me knows I live in this area and I've seen some green rats. No new info there. I could also post the county and it wouldn't be a big deal in my book. However, I'm not likely to talk about the green rats much, because it is one of those species that gets folks interested in coming to a certain area. There's other animals I'm not likely to talk about at all, because we just don't need more herpers pounding the pavement, so to speak, when we're out there. I guess one of my personal rules is, no new info. On the other hand, there doesn't seem to be any harm in discussing common herps that are commonly found, such as most of the desert herps. This is one of the reasons I talk about the herps I see on my property...they are common desert herps and can be found almost anywhere in the desert.

I know some of these problems are common on all the forums, but they are more of an issue here in AZ than in any other state. AZ is a herping mecca and folks want to come here. We need to learn to promote our resources wisely and safely, so everyone can have fun and there'll always be herps to be found. Education and conservation are alive and well in the AZ Chapter and we hope to keep it that way.

Best, all.... :beer:
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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Paul Lynum wrote:P.S. Am I the only person who hasn't herped in AZ for the past two months :) ? So many other places that are good this time of year to hit with no herpers. I'll do my best to keep it that way. Yeah I'm a snob :lol: I'm ready for AZ now. Maybe I'll see some of you in the field. Doubt it 8-)

Well, as you know Paul, I can't help but be herping all the time. Yesterday I got a desert spiny looking out the window on the back porch. Then I got a nice tiger whiptail out the window on the front walk as I worked on the computer. Distractions, distractions..heheh!

I've been hitting some other places: California, Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, and, of course, other places in AZ. Every place I went there were no other herpers, unless I agreed to join a small group. All the places I went were new to me. All produced new herps, lifers, new habitat, and I had a great time. I've also been herping some places in AZ where the conditions were new. So, the answer is, yes, I've been in other places and it's been really cool. Also, I have no plans to reveal these unknown locations.

PS: I've found myself really winding down this season. I haven't really been herping that much according to my previous endeavors. I don't have the energy that I used to have for being on the go, hiking many miles, and I've seen most of what AZ has to offer, so I'm not as enthusiastic anymore. Also, I've been spending more time with my collection and enjoying working with the few animals I really like. In the future I think I'm going to concentrate on new herps and new places that I might find fascinating, and maybe only take a few nice trips a year. One trip planned already. Cheers...

TC
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ratsnakehaven
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by ratsnakehaven »

I think Sauceman has an appropriate answer. People post pics because they like photography and they like seeing examples of what's out there. I can understand both sides of this issue and I think the answer is just to be careful when you do post pics. As we've discussed, both here and before the crash, at length, photos, with other discriptions, etc, can give info that helps others find the sites and the herps.

I don't think it's possible to control the number of posts or photos on any of the forums, without eliminating the forums or Chapters. I think we can only educate and try to persuade folks to make educated posts. Fortunately, most posters are aware of this and do make very good posts. I hope we continue to see examples of the responsible herping and posting.

Best...TC :crazyeyes:

sauceman wrote:
Brandon La Forest wrote:Just kinda curious, why does anyone post pictures? its not like a possed picture of an animal is going to somehow provide some important data. Really people post pictures because they feel like they deserve some kind of recognition and props for finding some snakes..there is no good reason for posting pictures except someones deep concided desire to feel good about themselves by obtaining recognition from others. All this arguing about why not to post pictures but where is the actual justification for doing so in the first place? In the end (in most cases) its just a way for people to get their egos stroked...thoughts?

-B-
I like to photograph herps. I like to look at other people's photos of herps they find. I appreciate that there are places where I can look at other people's finds and the ways that they present them through photography. I get to see great pictures of beautiful animals that I may not ever even have a chance to see in person. I get to see examples of variation in the animals that I do find myself. These activities would not be much fun if there weren't groups who contribute photos. I contribute mine and enjoy other people's. I thought that was a part of what this place is for.

I have seen other people's photos which inspired me or made me wonder about technique and composition. Through PMs, I have asked those people for advice, opinions on equipment, etc. In turn, I have shared my opinions and experiences with photography with others who have asked me questions. It would be a lie for me to say that it doesn't make me feel good in a way when people give me positive feedback about my photos. There's nothing wrong with that, it is encouragement. I also frequently compliment people on their photos and what I like about them which helps other people hone their skills.

That's why I post.
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Brandon La Forest
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Brandon La Forest »

Its good to see that these tips and advice are more welcome here, sadly though we are pretty much talking amongst ourselves (us az peeps). Seems that everyone else doesnt want to hear what we got to say though..after all they know more about herping az and the herps that live here than we do :)
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by DesertZone »

Here's to Paul for trying to do what he feels is right. :beer:
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Biker Dave
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Location: Wittmann,AZ

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Biker Dave »

Here's to everyone... :beer:

As long as we keep a civil dialogue we can not only educate each other - we can learn how to educate others as well.

From my personal experience here in AZ I have only run into other herpers one time while out roadcruising the deserts far west of Phoenix and exploring other areas around the state. I never see anyone else, unless I go out with a group. Weird.

Is this a cry for help from a "lonely herper"? Uhhhh no. Just my personal observations. Perhaps I'm lucky that way.

Dave
RobK

Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by RobK »

Paul Lynum wrote: As you have personally experienced herp things have changed for you since you first moved here. You have personally experienced the affects of well known spots. Some of which are very close to you. You changed your actions concerning post because you care. Every year more and more herpers show up.
Feel your pain, can't drive up in the mtns of Colorado w/o seeing tons of out of state plates. In fact, it's a virtual traffic jam most of the time going anywhere west on I-70 these days. Coming back from the slopes in the wintertime on I-70? Fugetaboutit! Even the minor roads leading up in the mtns are crowded. Relatively unknown hiking/camping spots seem to be well known these days. Guess we all have our bears to cross.
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geckoguy747
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by geckoguy747 »

as a new guy to the forum i want to say i am glad to have read this post. while paul's initial post may not have been his best attempt to get his point across, he makes a strong one, and this discussion should have opened up everyones' minds to this concept.
i'm 24 years old, born and raised in the same southern californian town i live in now. i have always had a huge love for herps (practically learned to read with the 'lizard' article of encyclopedia britannica). i keep a pretty large personal collection of them (all captive bred except for one pituophis a friend of mine caught eleven years ago), and i recently lost my job as the reptile (and everything else) keeper at our local zoo. for various reasons (didn't start driving until 20, no friends in the hobby, etc.) i've been unable to do a lot of field herping outside my backyard until recently (and with little experience i've had limited success). when i found this place i thought i had struck gold! i was going to make friends with all the posters in my area, and i was going to take them to all my spots, and they were going to take me to all of theirs, and i was going to learn all their techniques! i was so stoked to find a community of people just like me!
and the truth is, the more i read the more i realize (a lot of) you guys really are just like me! not only do you love herps, but you also seem to love everything about nature. (most of) you are fascinated by the intricate relationships that have evolved between each organism within an ecosystem, and you appreciate the delicate balance of it all. you want to preserve it and protect it! there are so many people who 'enjoy' nature and pay her back by leaving their trash, spraying their name on a rock or a tree, taking something they shouldn't back with them. and sadly, a lot of those same people return, complain about how trashed it is, and then repeat it all over again. but not you guys! you (and by 'you' i mean the posters, not the lurkers) want to experience nature in its natural state, and you actively try to make sure others can do the same.
the more i read the more i also realize this place isn't going to work the way i thought it was going to, but i still feel i've struck gold! i've already learned a lot from the forum, and this discussion in particular has been a very good lesson. i will most definitely use much more discretion than i had originally thought i would. conservation is a huge concern of mine (i've actually been considering spending some time on grand cayman volunteering with those beautiful blues!) and it's a little shocking to find out i could have been causing just the opposite. i was awfully naive to think i would just be posting for forum members and not for outsiders too, after all i was an outsider not too long ago, and even more naive not to consider the possibility of malicious intent.
i'm really looking forward to all of the experiences this board is going to help lead me to! what a great place!

josh
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azatrox
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by azatrox »

Josh...

Thanks for the post. It is indeed a shame that we can't share all we know on here...it's a shame that some would use that information for their own personal (illegal) gain and destroy habitat and poach animals. Unfortunately, that's the state of the world today.

That being said, this is still a great place for information sharing...Most here do want to share experiences and knowledge with others...we just have to be careful how we do it.

Arizona herpers have gotten the reputation for being "a tight lipped, selfish, unhelpful bunch" by some...This isn't so in my opinion. Provided that we have confidence that someone would respect the animals and environment, we're quite helpful because we (like you) still get excited to see animals and know what a rush that is.

Anyway, I can't speak for anyone else here really...I just know that we're all better if we share experiences and info...we just have to be cognizant that there are people out there that would use that info for illicit purposes and act accordingly.

-Kris
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geckoguy747
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by geckoguy747 »

completely understood. like i said, i'm glad i read this post, and i'm excited to be a part of this community!
craigb
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Post by craigb »

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Biker Dave
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Re: Arizona Herpers and the Herpers from everywhere else

Post by Biker Dave »

I agree with the above posts...

I have met some great people through this forum and with my proverbial hat in hand they have shared info with me. In the beginning it was not actual secret spots, but assistance on how to find secret spots,etc. After I gained their trust, was I able to obtain info on a few secret spots. But their is a HUGE responsibility that comes with that information. And that is to not betray that trust you have been granted.

Because of this trust, I have learned alot regarding herping from some very experienced herpers.

Be patient, partcipate in events, post on the forum (even what you may think are stupid newbie questions can sometimes spark a multi education level debate into the depths of herpetology), and don't be afraid to learn from others.

That is what this forum is all about ...... and don't forget to put your data in the database!

Dave Weber
AZ Chapter
Conservation Officer
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