Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

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Owen
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Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by Owen »

over in the NAFHA CA chapter forum:

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=14642

Trying to avoid split conversations by double posting :D .
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gbin
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by gbin »

Didn't Scott say that if a person didn't want to post the same post on both the main board and whatever NAFHA chapter board, s/he should put the post here on the main board and the link to it in the NAFHA chapter board? I could have sworn he said he didn't want threads containing nothing but links posted here. :?

Gerry
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by rpecora »

Yep. I just dissed a post for the SE chapter for the same thing.
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by rpecora »

This is asking for removal of the chapter forums.
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by gbin »

That's pretty much what I'm thinking, too. It's such blatant disregard for Scott's expressed wishes that it's hard not to think of it as deliberately provocative. I suppose the idea is that if the subforums are closed, then there will be more interest in setting up a forum somewhere else that will be even more exclusive than the subforum was (you know, to keep out the riffraff - like the folks here on FHF's main board)?... :roll:

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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by hellihooks »

Owen is never deliberately provocative...it's an oversight.
I'm getting ready to repost my thread about a single snake, found in my yard, over here... but quite frankly... resent HAVING to do it. I think Scott's 'rules', rather than bringing us together, are sowing seeds of discontent, and forcing us to consider other options... :( jim
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by Owen »

hellihooks wrote:Owen is never deliberately provocative...it's an oversight.

jim
Thanks Jim and you would be correct. There are no sticky rules on the posting subject matter to which forum.

I found this on page 6 (last page) of a 294 reply post and I am now in compliance:
Scott Waters wrote:Here is how I would like to see the chapter forums managed as we go forward....
- NAFHA business, meaning more of what you're doing now. More! :)

- Regional posts, but please copy and paste those posts into The Forum to promote what you're doing to the world as well. You don't need to title them differently, just re-post em' on The Forum. There are many people who do not read the chapter forums because they either a) don't have an interest in NAFHA or b) don't live in north america. So I ask that any field herping posts be double-posted. Simply copy and paste your awesome post(s) and place them in The Forum. Title them the same and then anyone who views the chapter forums and The Forum will know they've seen it. Sure, it will cause double the discussions, but that's the easiest way to handle it. What's wrong with more discussion from a diversity of eyes?
I'm tired :sleep:
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by rpecora »

...place them in The Forum. Title them the same...
However you didn't do that, and Jim didn't use the same title and RobertH didn't with his either.

Like I said before (I think) I'm not against the NAFHA forums, just remember that they are there courtesy of the FHF. I feel some of you may be displaying a bit of disrespect with your antics. There is no need for it. The NAFHA forums are certainly not atop of the food chain here.

I love the regional discussions, but I also like to be part of the bigger picture too.
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by hellihooks »

I added (Ca. repost) to mine, in case there's folks out there aren't interested in seeing it, so I don't waste their time. In some cases, lately...I see stuff like 'Salamander ID please' and then try to figure out what chapter it's from, by if I recognize the author. :roll:
Believe it or not... I have a limited amount of time I can spend on the forums, and would rather spend it productively, perhaps on a local question, I might know the answer to... rather than spend it wading though every post to figure out which ones are from my area.
I tried to start a 'What to post, Where' thread (which I can no longer find :shock: ) and caught nothing but grief, for it.

We turned moderating duties over to Scott, cause we didn't want to 'police' posts... and now we not only have to daily police our chapter posts (to see if and when they become 'herp-related' enough to be moved) but the Main seems to have a bunch of self-appointed 'post police' as well... :roll: Ohhh... the Irony... :lol: :lol: :lol:
If 'sharing' isn't voluntary... can it still be called 'sharing'? :? jim
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by gbin »

This:
Owen wrote:over in the NAFHA CA chapter forum:

http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=14642

Trying to avoid split conversations by double posting :D .
Is not by any means the same thing as this:
Scott Waters wrote:- Regional posts, but please copy and paste those posts into The Forum... just re-post em' on The Forum... I ask that any field herping posts be double-posted... Sure, it will cause double the discussions...
And I feel sure that Owen and everyone else knows it. I feel sure, too, that Scott also at one point or another specifically said that he did not want people just posting links in the main forum to their thread in a NAFHA chapter forum (though I believe the reverse was fine with him), but I have no idea where that is now or even whether it still exists given that he's been moving things around and also deleting them. In any event, he made himself pretty clear in the snippet that Owen quoted, saying no less than three times in the same paragraph that he wanted full posts here on the main board.

I'd agree with calling this stuff antics (except that as I stated above, it appears to me that it likely has a purpose: to get the chapter forums shut down so that there's support for more exclusive regional forums to be created elsewhere), and I'd say it displays much more than a bit of disrespect for our host and the online community he serves with this website. You're worried about some of us having appointed ourselves "post police," Jim? I worry that too many of the folks in the chapter forums are willing to harm our community overall in pursuit of their cliquish desires - and that other folks in the chapter forums who know better than to behave so aren't willing to speak up against this stuff. rpecora and I have both said ample to demonstrate that our concern is about the effects these antics may have here, not merely about this or that rule being broken. Whether or not you agree with us, try to keep that in mind and leave off belittling us for it.

Gerry
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by hellihooks »

Owen did NOT know the specifics... we exchanged a series of PM's this am, wherein I informed him this was in fact the case, and he then searched for it till he found it, and then complied.

Which is what should have been done, by anyone, in the first place, rather than addressing it publicly.
Gerry... you and Mike have both publicly supported 'one forum' and the replies pointing out that someone is not following Scott's request to the letter, and then suggesting that it's so we will again lose the chapter forums, so we will separate from FHF, are FAR MORE provocative than anyone forgetting, not knowing, or even ignoring Scott's request.
It could be argued that creating 'flameouts' every time it happens, will lose us the chapter forums a lot quicker than folks not doing what Scott asked. Scott ASKED us (the IBM) to take over moderating duties, for the Nafha. Rather than create a public spectacle, why not hit the 'report this post' button, and let Scott do what he asked to do... handle it. Better yet... this could have been handled by pm... and fixed, without all this unnecessary fuss. jim
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by gbin »

hellihooks wrote:Owen did NOT know the specifics... we exchanged a series of PM's this am, wherein I informed him this was in fact the case, and he then searched for it till he found it, and then complied.
Sorry, Jim, but that's apparently not true in at least one critical aspect. Owen started another Ensatina thread here on the main board again this afternoon, this time providing the whole post but also again emphasizing - twice, at that - that he only wanted discussion to appear in the NAFHA chapter forum, not in the main forum. This was despite the fact that he himself quoted Scott saying that both the originating post and whatever discussion should appear here on the main board. And it's not just a matter of not following Scott's request "to the letter"; it differs from what Scott asked for, and with good reason, in a rather substantial way. Do I need to dredge up still more recent evidence of how some in the NAFHA chapter forums try to make non-NAFHA members of FHF feel unwelcome there? I assure you it would be no problem at all for me to find some for you. Field herping-related posts belong here on the main board, and discussion about them belong here on the main board; if folks want to repeat them in their NAFHA chapter subforums then so be it, but the main board is the heart of FHF. Scott's request for this only reflects what he believes is best for his website and what a lot of us recognize is best for our community. It's not just a case of a bunch of arbitrary rules coming down from The Man to ruin y'all's good time.
hellihooks wrote:... suggesting that it's so we will again lose the chapter forums, so we will separate from FHF, are FAR MORE provocative than anyone forgetting, not knowing, or even ignoring Scott's request.
I didn't "suggest" it, insinuate it, hint at it or any other such. I flatly said that's how it very much looks to me and so that's what I believe is going on. You know as well as I do that it's not just one person engaging in these antics, not even just on the CA NAFHA chapter board. I'm sure you also know that there are people on that and other boards who are still openly campaigning for creating more exclusive forums elsewhere. Please don't pretend that we're talking about a single post in which a fellow apparently made a mistake when in fact we're talking about a number of posts by a number of people, at least some of whom are obviously disregarding Scott's request by intent. If Owen were the only person behaving this way I'd probably pay little or no mind, myself, but there's actually something of a pattern of behavior emerging here. Aside from the fact that I've as much a right to express my view as anyone else does, if my view is right on this then there are folks in the NAFHA chapter forums actively working to split our community apart - and that most certainly deserves to be brought out in the open. And I firmly believe that all of us - you, me, rpecora, Owen, Scott and everyone else here, whether or not they've ever given it a thought - are responsible for this community's well-being.

Gerry
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by hellihooks »

I'm not going to be party to this (derailment?) anymore... and truth be told Gerry, didn't even read your last reply. I'm doing my best not to become embroiled in endless arguments that derail the stated purpose of dual posts... to bring folks together.

Meanwhile... back in the Ca Chapter, were having a very nice, interesting discussion on Ca Ensatinas, and I JUST read an abstract, someone on the forums posted a link to, about Ca Ensatinas, detailing how about half the ensatinas have developed coloration as camouflage, and the other half (down south) had developed their colors for 'toxin mimicry'
Anyone Know where I can find that, again? :thumb: jim
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by Owen »

gbin wrote:
hellihooks wrote:Owen did NOT know the specifics... we exchanged a series of PM's this am, wherein I informed him this was in fact the case, and he then searched for it till he found it, and then complied.
Sorry, Jim, but that's apparently not true in at least one critical aspect. Owen started another Ensatina thread here on the main board again this afternoon, this time providing the whole post but also again emphasizing - twice, at that - that he only wanted discussion to appear in the NAFHA chapter forum, not in the main forum. This was despite the fact that he himself quoted Scott saying that both the originating post and whatever discussion should appear here on the main board. And it's not just a matter of not following Scott's request "to the letter"; it differs from what Scott asked for, and with good reason, in a rather substantial way.

Gerry
Well, I replied to you on my repost ten minutes before you posted this. If you look at what I quoted from Scott (just up the page here), it by no means says where the discussion should take place... it just states that it will cause double the discussions. I'm acting sincerely by reposting. Why can't you accept it and be civil.
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by Jeff »

The pdf, linked below, is a paper that discusses the genetic shifts in Ensatina in the central Coast Ranges.
http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/1235.pdf

One non-intuitive conclusion is that various populations of the "yelloweyes" are more closely related to adjacent pattern morphs than to other yelloweyes. One concluion made there, and in previous Wake publications, is that the San Francisco Peninsula/Santa Cruz Mountains things are related to oregonensis, which may explain the reduction in optic xanthophores in those salamanders.

The mimicry between xanthoptica and sympatric Taricha may have evolved in a few populations, but in most regions in which ensatinas and newts are sympatric there appears to be no mimetic design (bummer about ensatinas that live with Red-bellied Newts). An alternative point may be that coastal ensatinas that live in patchy woodland are brighter in color than those that live in dark forests. This is an interesting question that Stebbins discussed in his classic 1949 monograph, but is befuddled by the complexity of secondary contacts elucidated by genetic studies.

Jeff
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by hellihooks »

Thx Jeff,
Now I (sorta) remember you posting this... in Ca Chap? It was an interesting read, and very germane to the Ca version of this thread... :thumb: jim
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by Owen »

Thanks Jeff. I'll copy your reply to the CA chapter post.
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by rpecora »

Owen wrote:Well, I replied to you on my repost ten minutes before you posted this. If you look at what I quoted from Scott (just up the page here), it by no means says where the discussion should take place... it just states that it will cause double the discussions. I'm acting sincerely by reposting. Why can't you accept it and be civil.
Let see what Scott stated as you posted it, I have underlined portions for effect:

Scott Waters wrote:
Here is how I would like to see the chapter forums managed as we go forward....
- NAFHA business, meaning more of what you're doing now. More! :)

- Regional posts, but please copy and paste those posts into The Forum to promote what you're doing to the world as well. You don't need to title them differently, just re-post em' on The Forum. There are many people who do not read the chapter forums because they either a) don't have an interest in NAFHA or b) don't live in north america. So I ask that any field herping posts be double-posted. Simply copy and paste your awesome post(s) and place them in The Forum. Title them the same and then anyone who views the chapter forums and The Forum will know they've seen it. Sure, it will cause double the discussions, but that's the easiest way to handle it. What's wrong with more discussion from a diversity of eyes?


See Owen, I think you might be reading into it.

Also, in this thread Gerry has been very civil.
hellihooks wrote:I see stuff like 'Salamander ID please' and then try to figure out what chapter it's from
What chapter it's from? Is that chapter bias thinking?
hellihooks wrote:We turned moderating duties over to Scott, cause we didn't want to 'police' posts
Turned over? What was that discussion like?

NAFHA has been growing in stature and that's a good thing. If it's chapter forum members here feel that they no longer desire to contribute to the FHF and want to leave the umbrella of the FHF then maybe they should.

Jim, I compliment you on your desire and willingness to help people. I think you have great intentions and will continue to do good things, just don't limit yourself to the CA chapter of NAFHA, and/or NAFHA as a whole.
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by gbin »

Owen wrote:Well, I replied to you on my repost ten minutes before you posted this...
In real time, Owen, you apparently replied to me in the other thread while I was writing my post. That's a rather predictable problem when someone has posted more or less doubly to the same forum. To bring the discussion together in one place:
Owen wrote:Gerry, I copied the identical post over here and added a polite please keep the discusion on the original.

It is not contrary to Scott's posting edict to ask people to post on one or the other, especially since the conversation has already been started on the original the prior day. All he said is that it will cause double discussions not that it had to cause double discusions. I did this by the books in good faith. If I added an extra sentence or word or link, it's no different than adding a reply or edit. All else was copied word for word, pictures and all.

I've been on FHF since 2006 and maybe I've just missed your rude behavior prior to 2012, but I've just become involved in NAFHA in 2011. I'm not sure what your agenda is but please stop as it contributes nothing positive and borders on cyberstalking.
It quite clearly is contrary to Scott's expressed wishes (he declared no "edict" that I'm aware of), and as I said I feel sure you know this. He clearly wants discussion here on the main board, even if it also occurs in a NAFHA chapter board. You clearly asked that no one discuss things here, but only there. Come on... :roll:
Owen wrote:... Why can't you accept it and be civil.
I have been civil throughout this discussion, certainly as civil as one reasonably can be while pointing out a problem/pattern that points toward some people likely working to divide our community in order to foster their own regional clique. We're on opposites sides of something here, you and I (and before that, Jim and I), and obviously we both feel strongly about our positions. Just as obviously that's caused some contention between us. But a person isn't being uncivil or rude just because they're disagreeing with you, you know - even if you're losing the argument because the facts all weigh against you, as in this case. I would say that between the two of us, it is you that has brought uncivil behavior to the discussion, by baselessly accusing me of being rude and uncivil, of having some kind of hidden agenda (I do indeed have an agenda, and I laid it out quite clearly: to act in the best interests of this community by exhorting people to act in the best interest of this, FHF's main, message board and in accordance with the website owner's wishes, rather than in what they believe is the best interest of their NAFHA chapter subforum or the clique that might have formed there) and of cyberstalking you. None of those are true, but were apparently said by you only to cast aspersions on me and to inflame the situation. At least you didn't trot out that old pearl that I'm somehow "against NAFHA!" as some others have before you while defending their cliquish behavior, as if any criticism leveled (with good cause) at any member of NAFHA somehow equates to criticizing NAFHA itself. As rpecora said, I think it's wonderful that NAFHA has been doing well, and I wish the organization and its members the best; I'm personally just more interested in seeing to it that FHF does well by all of us here, NAFHA member and non-NAFHA member alike.

You and like-minded individuals are doubtless going to do just what you want as long as Scott allows it, Owen. I realize that. But you should realize on your part that there are those of us who object to it and feel that we have very good grounds for doing so - and we're not going to shut up about it just because you sling some mud our way.

Gerry
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by rpecora »

Owen, I like the new avatar better than the last. That eyeball action was something else.
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by Owen »

Gerry and Mike, let's just agree that we misunderstand each other. I'm trying to make the best of a situation that is not clearly defined, and by that, I mean posting rules visibly posted where one can clearly see the requested way to post. I spent an hour finding what Scott said about how he wanted to do posts... then I reposted the entire original post. All done with good intentions. It would be simpler if it were just added to the forum as a how to post/where to post sticky.

I'm not trying to argue with this statement, but more to give insight into how I'm thinking. If you're going to quote me, please quote the entire thought. If I say, "I hate cats that dig up my plants and crap in my yard", quoting "I hate cats" completely misrepresents what I've said. I guess, in my mind, that is rude. Again, I think with our varied experiences, we 'color' the replies aimed at us. I'm ready to move on from this. Let's give peace a chance.

Oh, and Mike, the eyes had my reflection, my wife's and my dog's so I did that to incorporate us all, but now I just need a cigarette :lol:

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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by Mike Waters »

Gerry, i applaud you as the master troll of the universe. Have you ever posted in a thread and not started a debate? When or clique finally gets our forums moved as me and my conspirators are so diligently working towards i hope that you will join us. You are nuttier the squirrel poop.
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by gbin »

Owen wrote:Gerry and Mike, let's just agree that we misunderstand each other...
Or at the very least, that additional clarification from Scott on what he wants would be useful.
Owen wrote:... If you're going to quote me, please quote the entire thought. If I say, "I hate cats that dig up my plants and crap in my yard", quoting "I hate cats" completely misrepresents what I've said. I guess, in my mind, that is rude...
You're suggesting that I misrepresented something you said by taking your quotes out of context. That's simply not true. I'm not trying to argue either, Owen, but I'm afraid I don't want to be misrepresented either.
Owen wrote:... I'm ready to move on from this. Let's give peace a chance.
Fine by me. I've said my piece and you've said yours; now it's time for peace, instead. ;)
Mike Waters wrote:Gerry, i applaud you as the master troll of the universe. Have you ever posted in a thread and not started a debate? When or clique finally gets our forums moved as me and my conspirators are so diligently working towards i hope that you will join us. You are nuttier the squirrel poop.
Ah, another meaningful contribution to a difficult discussion by one of my anti-fans/cyberstalkers. :roll: You rarely fail to live down to my low expectations for you, Mike.

Gerry
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by Mike Waters »

And you feel as though you are making a contribution? To what?
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Re: Yellow-eyed Ensatina post relating to 'typical' color

Post by rpecora »

I'm stymied on how what Scott said in his post that you copied here is inconclusive of what he wants and how he wants it. Seems cut and dry to me. I suppose it's because it is not convoluted dialog making it hard for some to understand.

Yes time to move on, have a good year.
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