Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

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Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by chris_mcmartin »

People of Walmart is a site of "creatures" you can find roaming the aisles at Wal-Mart...usually of the human kind. It's generally good for a laugh or as an appetite supressant, depending on the "creature."

Yesterday (August 5th--as of this thread, this particular entry was on Page 2 of the "creature features") featured a posting called "Reptiles and Amphibians" with pics of crocodiles, bullfrogs, and softshell turtles being sold as food in a Wal-Mart in China. Dead crocs (on ice), live frogs and turtles.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Natalie McNear »

That's pretty crazy right there... Anyone know which species the crocs are?
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by stlouisdude »

Hope no walmarts open near cannibals
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Post by spinifer »

Here are the images from the site.

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Post by erik loza »

Wow, just wow.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Paul White »

you know, if I knew they were farmed it wouldn't bother me much...we do it to lobsters, fish, cow, pig etc.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by wayne_fidler »

mmmmm crocodile
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by jonathan »

I know of someone who went to a night market in Taiwan where they had a pool full of small turtles with magnets taped to their backs. Kids could take a fishing pole with a magnet instead of a lure and try to catch one. If you got one, you could take it right over to a guy to get it cooked.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Natalie McNear »

Paul White wrote:you know, if I knew they were farmed it wouldn't bother me much...we do it to lobsters, fish, cow, pig etc.
Yeah I feel pretty much the same way... As long as herps are farmed as responsibly and humanely as possible (goes for any animal), they're good eatin' like anything else. And pound for pound of meat, they probably require fewer resources than mammals since they are ectothermic.

EDIT: That reminds me... When I was in Australia last year, I ordered some grilled crocodile on a skewer that was really good. The meat was derived from a Saltwater Croc farm in Australia... I think it's very likey they also export some meat to China - do those ones in the photos look like Salties?
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Bob H »

I think that it is a safe bet the crocodiles are farmed. It is also possible that the frogs and turtles have been farmed. Evidently there are some really massive turtle farms in China producing millions of turtles.....a lot come back here as exactly turtles that are just in excess of the 4 inch rule and can be sold in pet shops. We used to send millions of baby red ear and yellow bellied turtles over there and now they are ranching them and sending some back.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Lloyd Heilbrunn »

Clearly, you missed the puppy aisle.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

Bob H wrote:Evidently there are some really massive turtle farms in China producing millions of turtles
Correct.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by b_rickard »

I got into a fight (verbal) on a turtle forum because of this stuff. I have been to China numerous times. They farm a lot of the turtles in these stores and markets. Granted there are a lot of non farmed animals. It is everywhere and very widespread throughout all of SE China where I have been. I can say thought that I have never seen crocs like that. That is very interesting.

The last time I was in China I seen a dog farmer bringing his product to market via a bus that I happened to be on. He had wire crates stuffed full of puppies loaded on the top of the bus. It was to say the least a very interesting sight and sound!
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by crocdoc »

The crocs definitely aren't saltwater crocs. They look like they may be either New Guinea or Philippine crocs (the former are farmed in PNG, the latter are highly endangered).
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Mourits »

This is some of the stuff that I've seen in chinese super markets:

Tasty.. Pelodiscus sinensis:

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And for pets; Chrysemys scripta elegans (Only about a dollar each):

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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Viridovipera »

Welcome to Asia! In Vietnam they have watersnakes for sale as well. I haven't seen any in supermarkets, but fancy restaurants will have like 30 watersnakes in 4 inches of water. All species were native. Softshelled turtles are common as well. I've never seen American bullfrogs though, only their local "bullfrog," Hopolobatrachus rugulosus in cages in markets. All are cooked to order. Just as we chose a lobster out of a tank in the restaurant, they chose a snake or turtle and order it fried steamed or in a sauce.

I've also heard of alligator farms in China. To me, that is a good thing, as it will take some poaching pressure off the Chinese alligator.

The thing that worries me most about this are the invasive species potentials. Most already know the damage bullfrogs can do, as well as how easily red-eared sliders can become established. This is how it starts...

A sad world, but where there is demand for these delicacies, there will be supply. Be it from China or America.

-Alex
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by chris_mcmartin »

crocdoc wrote:The crocs definitely aren't saltwater crocs. They look like they may be either New Guinea or Philippine crocs (the former are farmed in PNG, the latter are highly endangered).
I'd venture a guess that a corporation as big as Wal-Mart would have the wherewithal to not dabble in selling endangered species as food. Maybe.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by b_rickard »

Viridovipera wrote:In Vietnam they have watersnakes for sale as well. I haven't seen any in supermarkets, but fancy restaurants will have like 30 watersnakes in 4 inches of water.I've also heard of alligator farms in China. To me, that is a good thing, as it will take some poaching pressure off the Chinese alligator.
-Alex
Alex,
To the contrary. In south China the medicinal "benefits" come from wild caught animals. They think that getting the animals from farms is not as good as wild caught animals. Their traditional belief about these animals is really crazy, but is their beliefs.

The written Chinese language comes from sitting around a camp fire a really really long time ago and cooking turtle. The fire burnt shell cracked and looked like something that was being talked about and that is how the written Chinese language was born. I learned this in a Asian language class in Sweden.

Also, at the wild animal markets in Guangzhou and most likely other places you can find literally 1000's of the same species in tanks, like the water snakes you are talking about. While in Guangzhou I seen large vats full of small green water snakes. This was about the time Mandarins were coming into the hobby. A friend of mine and myself were bringing animals to Europe, and we got was thought to be fresh Mandarins. I think we got 50 or so from a dealer at an animal market. All of them but one died. No harm though, our 50 or so was nothing compared to what they were busy killing that day. The animal dealers had more than 10 bags full (the bags were at least 3 feet in diameter and 5 feet tall). The snakes were full to the rim of these bags.

Look at my website for pics of the turtles. The numbers are really mind boggling.

March 2001
http://www.barrysturtles.com/China/Marc ... ngzhou.htm

http://www.barrysturtles.com/China/Marc ... anning.htm

http://www.barrysturtles.com/China/Marc ... ei_hei.htm

These pics are from my first trip to China. The russels vipers and cobras were on the street with barefoot kids walking by!

August 2001
http://www.barrysturtles.com/China/Augu ... t_2001.htm

http://www.barrysturtles.com/China/Augu ... t_2001.htm

August 2002
http://www.barrysturtles.com/China/Augu ... t_2002.htm

Notice the room full of Orlita borneoensis, this is a ridiculous example of what I seen. Most of these photos are from the famous Qing Ping Wild Animal Market in Guangzhou.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by BronxHerper »

wow thats crazy. i cant believe the stuff these guys sell. i was at a fish market in china town in nyc today, and was totally shocked when I looked down and saw a HUGE box full of softshells. it was so shocking, seeing something I'd be so happy to see in the wild (never caught a wild softshell before), on the market about to be sold as FOOD (only $9) too. Felt really bad for the poor guys. They also had what looked like bullfrogs, about 200 of them packed inside a garbage can, with col water so they won't jump around. Made me kinda sick actually.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Paul White »

The written Chinese language comes from sitting around a camp fire a really really long time ago and cooking turtle. The fire burnt shell cracked and looked like something that was being talked about and that is how the written Chinese language was born. I learned this in a Asian language class in Sweden.
umm, that may be what the Chinese (some of them) regard as the source of their language, but that doesn't mean that it's actually how their writing system was started. I'd hazard a guess that there's not reliable sources since the origin would predate the widespread use of the writing system...there's not going to be a plethora of written records from the time when writing was new...
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Esther »

I don't have to go to China to see the exact same thing (thankfully, minus the puppies--I'd sic the ASPCA on the "dog farmer" so fast his head would ignite...). You can see a lot of the same fare offered in downtown Flushing in Queens, NY. Home of the Unisphere (leftover from the '64 Worlds Fair in Flushing Meadow Park). I cringe to see baby sliders offered for sale in inadequate containers with dried flies and other non-nutritious "food" sold to feed them. There are tanks of live miserable-looking bullfrogs, unhappy softshell turtles, eels, various live (and dead) fish, weird-looking mollusks and live nippy crabs, etc. You have to watch yourself while cruising down the live-stuff aisle---I've had crabs heave themselves off the pile in open boxes and become airborne right at me.

These markets are only useful to me when I need live specimens of mollusks or frozen squid for students to dissect. Otherwise, I'll take my own neighborhood markets without the zoo within.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

Hindus think eating cows is a sin. Most Westerners think eating puppies and horses is a sin. Most East Asians find raw oysters and cheese (= rotten milk) revolting. Snake soup enrages me. Steamed bullfrog with wasabi excites me. Apart from the living conditions for the animals cited here, it's all a matter of perspective and open to discussion. I find softshell turtles cute, so I don't eat them. But I'm also aware that it's a highly irrational decision :-)
In south China the medicinal "benefits" come from wild caught animals. They think that getting the animals from farms is not as good as wild caught animals.
Not necessarily. The rat snake Ptyas dhumnades is farmed on a large scale, as its meat has a proven beneficial effect on various skin diseases.
Their traditional belief about these animals is really crazy
Some are, some aren't. I've been seeing Chinese doctors for 22 years now, and the effects seemingly innocuous plants can have never cease to amaze me. Apart from the obvious bullsh*t, like how eating cobras and bears reinforces your manhood, there's truth to be found here and there.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by crocdoc »

chris_mcmartin wrote:I'd venture a guess that a corporation as big as Wal-Mart would have the wherewithal to not dabble in selling endangered species as food. Maybe.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were being ironic.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Tom »

Hans Breuer (twoton) wrote:
In south China the medicinal "benefits" come from wild caught animals. They think that getting the animals from farms is not as good as wild caught animals.
Not necessarily. The rat snake Ptyas dhumnades is farmed on a large scale, as its meat has a proven beneficial effect on various skin diseases.

Really? :?
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Hans Breuer (twoton) »

Really. I'm not one who easily "goes Injun" on native beliefs, but I've heard and read quite a lot to that extent - including medical research papers.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Daryl Eby »

Esther wrote:I don't have to go to China to see the exact same thing (thankfully, minus the puppies--I'd sic the ASPCA on the "dog farmer" so fast his head would ignite...).
Why is puppy butchering any worse than butchering any other animal? Just cause their cute? Cause we've anthropomorphized them? Cause we keep them as pets?

Animal cruelty is animal cruelty, but cruelty to "cute" animals is not objectively any worse than cruelty to other animals. If they are kept and dispatched in a humane manner (is it possible to "humanely" kill something?) then how is it different from farming chickens?

Hans said it best, "I find softshell turtles cute, so I don't eat them. But I'm also aware that it's a highly irrational decision."
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by chris_mcmartin »

crocdoc wrote:
chris_mcmartin wrote:I'd venture a guess that a corporation as big as Wal-Mart would have the wherewithal to not dabble in selling endangered species as food. Maybe.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you were being ironic.
Demonstrate the crocs are the endangered flavor, and stick it to Wal-Mart, then.

I'm no lawyer, but I have to think by being a US-based corporation we Americans could saddle them with violations of ESA, CITES, etc. if they in fact are allowing endangered species to be sold in their stores.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by crocdoc »

chris_mcmartin wrote: Demonstrate the crocs are the endangered flavor, and stick it to Wal-Mart, then.

I'm no lawyer, but I have to think by being a US-based corporation we Americans could saddle them with violations of ESA, CITES, etc. if they in fact are allowing endangered species to be sold in their stores.
I'm not an American, but that's besides the point. I can say without hesitation that my case, using low resolution photographs from the internet as species verification (even if I was pretty sure it was an endangered species), would have no chance against the sort of lawyers that a large corporation can afford.

My point earlier was this: Large corporations aren't likely to take an ethical stance that would be regarded as 'high road' when it comes to endangered species. They'll do what they can get away with and, as we are all aware, one can get away with a lot when it comes to reptiles because the general public doesn't care. The killiing and/or marketing of non-endangered animals that are considered 'cute', 'noble' or 'smart', on the other hand, would cause uproar. Maybe those crocodiles are an endangered species, maybe they aren't. The animals in the photograph could be one of a handful of species and I offered a selection of two that, from what I can see in the image, they look like. A higher resolution image or one taken closer up might settle it, but I wouldn't use the fact that the store was owned by a large American corporation as proof either way.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by WSTREPS »

Yeah, Wal Mart is openly selling endangered crocodiles in the food section of their Chinese stores (how many stores do they have there 1 or 2) Obviously that's where the big bucks are at. Common sense................

There is no way Wal Mart would ever knowingly get mixed up in anything that silly. It doesn't matter if they have the resources and legal clout to get away with it. Risking the possible aggravation, bad publicity, etc., makes it a completely stupid venture, not to mention the fact that's there is NO MONEY IN IT ! So where's the incentive? The stuff found in their grocery section is ordered from a normal everyday supplier.

Its nuts to think that Wal Mart is trying to run some kind of little black market endangered species racket. And out of one their most important and scrutinized store fronts no less.Some shady black market animal dealer isn't dropping off boxes at the back door.The manager gets out his/her order book and does an order just like anywhere else. In the order books the products are marked WC, farm raised and the country of origin is listed thats all anyone at Wal Mart know about it.


FACT >>> Chinese softhells are farmed in huge numbers, so are the frogs. A lot of frog legs are exported from China to the US.

Ernie Eison
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Paul White »

I'm not an American, but that's besides the point.
It's not besides the point. WalMart is an American company, subject to American laws and American public opinion. If you don't understand Americans then you're operating at a handicap when judging their actions and motivations. It's like me expounding on a company based in the UAE or even Australia. I know very little to nil about the laws and cultures of those countries so I'd be operating blind.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by b_rickard »

Hans Breuer (twoton) wrote:
Their traditional belief about these animals is really crazy
Some are, some aren't. I've been seeing Chinese doctors for 22 years now, and the effects seemingly innocuous plants can have never cease to amaze me. Apart from the obvious bullsh*t, like how eating cobras and bears reinforces your manhood, there's truth to be found here and there.
Hans,
Not arguing with you but I will take most TCM with a grain of salt.
They believe eating cat eyes will make you see better in the dark.
They believe eating Shinisaurus crocodilus will rid you of insomnia because of the way the lizard sleeps at night and that they are hard to wake.
By eating an old turtle or tortoise gives you longevity.

Sure, I imagine there are medical benefits to eating almost anything, but I still wouldn't eat a turd if it was good for me. Nor would I eat a turtle if it would make me live longer. Cows, chickens, and pigs are fine with me.

This is just my opinion.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by crocdoc »

I'm going to repeat what I said earlier - I have not said those crocodiles are definitely an endangered species, but neither would I use "it's a large American corporation" as proof either way. To do so would be naive.

Nor did I say anything about Walmart doing any of this knowingly. I'm not a conspiracy theory crackpot suggesting that they are intentionally involved in blackmarket trading of endangered species. What I am suggesting is this: The ordering of the stock for that particular walmart is probably done locally, rather than by headquarters in the USA. We all know that a lot of animal trading goes on all around the world on involving WC animals, both common and endangered. China is hardly at the forefront of conservation when it comes to the animal trade so no, I do not find it impossible (nor even improbable) that endangered species would end up in a walmart there.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by WSTREPS »

Nor did I say anything about Walmart doing any of this knowingly. I'm not a conspiracy theory crackpot suggesting that they are intentionally involved in black-market trading of endangered species. What I am suggesting is this: The ordering of the stock for that particular Walmart is probably done locally, rather than by headquarters in the USA. We all know that a lot of animal trading goes on all around the world on involving WC animals, both common and endangered. China is hardly at the forefront of conservation when it comes to the animal trade so no, I do not find it impossible (nor even improbable) that endangered species would end up in a Walmart there.
Things like frogs, fish, etc., are identified by the correct scientific names not just the common name. Its marked on all the shipping containers. Cites animals need the correct documents if their shipped internationally regardless of the purpose.

I thought there was only couple of Walmart's in China but they have something like 200+ stores counting what they call Trust-Mart. They serve about 7 million customers a week. So now your talking about the vendors that are supplying the Chinese Walmart's having to be big and be able to supply a lot of merchandise. Most likely the Crocs would be ordered from one of their major seafood vendors who would get them from farms. I think that whole crocs would be sold fresh (maybe previously frozen )? and be more or less a special order item only sold in selected stores. But forget all that............

Why would anyone sell poached or smuggled rare and endangered commercially black listed animals to Walmart for pennies on the dollar?

On top of that Walmart has all their contact information so if anything does happen it can be traced right back to them. Even selling these animals to one of Walmart's vendors would make no sense for the exact same reasons.

ERNIE EISON
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by crocdoc »

WSTREPS wrote: Things like frogs, fish, etc., are identified by the correct scientific names not just the common name.
And we all know that people never fudge that sort of stuff.

Unless you work for Walmart China, your argument is based on even more guesses and suppositions than mine. If you want to believe that a corporation always takes the high ground because it is large and American, that's fine. I still stand by what I say: I would not use "but it is a large corporation" as proof of species identification and whether or not it is endangered.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by WSTREPS »

Unless you work for Walmart China, your argument is based on even more guesses and suppositions than mine.

Actually my argument is based on common business sense. It applys anywhere. The final two paragraphs of my previous post should have summed that up in terms that anyone could understand. It has nothing to do with using "but it is a large corporation" as any kind of proof. It has everything to do with the fact that in the scenario your trying push, NOBODY makes any money to justify the effort. The smugglers and the poachers would be the FIRST ones to understand this. Anyone who has an actual clue knows that much.

ERNIE EISON
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by Jason_Hood »

I have also heard that WC animals are worth more than CB in the Chinese medical markets. One of the talks I attended ( I forget where or who the speaker was) was on the Asian Turtle Crisis and the truckloads of WC turtles going into China. Box trucks filled floor to ceiling, front to back, with pictures to show just how many. It was insane!! On the WC subject, apparently the first few guys breeding turtles on farms did so in secret and as they were found out to be farming, their stock lost hundreds of thousands in value. They guarded their farms like drug lords keeping all the farm ponds secret as long as they could.

As far as the croc goes, I have no idea what it is, but assuming that a "endangered" species is worth more than another is being presumptuous. Many endangered species are locally abundant in certain places, so coming to market with a large number of any croc (or any other animal) will drive your individual value down. To sell some to a client be it Wal Mart or some other local store means very little to a supplier who may or may not know what they have in the first place, nor care. Seeing endanger and protected species for sale is not new or uncommon. In a WalMart it would be... but that is probably the only place in China it would be strange, but just barely.

Jason
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by chris_mcmartin »

crocdoc wrote:I'm going to repeat what I said earlier - I have not said those crocodiles are definitely an endangered species, but neither would I use "it's a large American corporation" as proof either way. To do so would be naive.

Nor did I say anything about Walmart doing any of this knowingly.
And I, in turn, am going to repeat what I said earlier: if you can identify these animals as an endangered species, please call this to the Wal-Mart corporate headquarters' attention. Heck, even if you think they might be an endangered species, notify them. At least put them on notice to double-check their inventory and their suppliers.

I'm not saying Wal-Mart's rationale is one of "taking the moral high ground," rather it is more likely one of "wishing to avoid a lawsuit and/or bad publicity."
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by crocdoc »

chris_mcmartin wrote:if you can identify these animals as an endangered species
crocdoc wrote:I have not said those crocodiles are definitely an endangered species
As I said earlier, I'm not going to start shooting off letters or emails on the basis of a low resolution photograph someone found on the internet.
WSTREPS wrote: ...should have summed that up in terms that anyone could understand.
Yeah, let's get condescending, now. That'll prove your point.

I'm not going to bother responding to your points one at a time as this is going nowhere. We're going to have to agree to disagree. As I said earlier, the photo looked to be one of a couple of species. I am not convinced that just because it is walmart/an american corporation/a business it has to be one or the other. You disagree. We'll have to leave it at that.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by chris_mcmartin »

crocdoc wrote:I am not convinced that just because it is walmart/an american corporation/a business it has to be one or the other. You disagree. We'll have to leave it at that.
Your insinuation is that the Big Bad Corporation is possibly getting away with flouting international law regarding endangered species. I know it's fashionable to villify Wal-Mart, and probably warranted for a variety of reasons, but this probably ain't one of them.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by crocdoc »

crocdoc wrote:We're going to have to agree to disagree.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by chris_mcmartin »

crocdoc wrote:
crocdoc wrote:We're going to have to agree to disagree.
:beer:
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WSTREPS
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by WSTREPS »

As far as the croc goes, I have no idea what it is, but assuming that a "endangered" species is worth more than another is being presumptuous.

To sell some to a client be it Walmart or some other local store means very little to a supplier who may or may not know what they have in the first place, nor care.
That's the point. The bottom line is the bottom line. What ever a supplier like the one described is selling. They could sell for at least the same amount or most likely more money elsewhere and with ten times less hassle.

There is a huge difference in dealing with some local store and dealing with a large international retail corporation like Walmart. A lot of accountability goes into dealing with a giant retailer like Walmart. Its not like you can just show up with your goods and they cut you a check. Company's like Walmart and Target really put their vendors thru the ringer.Walmart doesn't need to deal with independent vendors, they build or contract out all their own farms, fishing fleets, etc., and they monitor and control all of it.


The fact is the guys that poach, smuggle and traffic animals that actually are rare and "endangered" species. Know what their animals are worth. They go for maximum profit. That is what its all about. And yes, these types of animals absolutely are worth more than another. It doesn't matter if its for skins, medicinal purposes or live trade ... locals going out and collecting, buying and selling "endangered" species among themselves in the local markets. Unregulated trade. Is a totally different scenario then what this thread is about. And that brings us to the semantics of "endangered."

There's lots of "endangered" animals out there that aren't. Its funny how that game works. For example Argentine boas (occidentalis) Are an Appendix I species. Considered the most endangered among CITES-listed animals. But the fact is these snakes have a huge range and are a dime a dozen in the wild. Hardly endangered.

There are many examples along these lines especially when talking about reptiles. Id say excepting the "endangered" tag as fact is what really constitutes being presumptuous. That "endangered" tag really gets thrown around a lot. Sometimes true and sometimes not so...........true.



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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by crocdoc »

You have made a lot of presumptions on what my stance is regarding the intentions of the sellers, the source of the animals and a number of other things, all based on my statement that I would not use "but it's a big corporation" as the deciding factor in species identification from a photograph, because even endangered animals may show up where you least expect it (like a food seller in China - who'da thunk?). However, it's clearly not worthwhile responding point by point and going in continual circles, so I'm going to quote myself again:
crocdoc wrote:
crocdoc wrote:We're going to have to agree to disagree.
If you're unfamiliar with this expression, what it means is that this discussion is going nowhere and consequently it would be a waste of time to continue. You're not going to convince me that endangered animals would never show up in Walmart China and I'm not going to convince you that it is not an impossible scenario.

Let me know if this needs clarification.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by lashinala2 »

And Walmart has sold whale meat in Japan! AAHHHHHH. Yawn.
And the U.S. sells compound 1080 to Australia and New Zealand, but not here (thank God).
Hey, that stuff could kill a dingo, you know.
You think Walmart and the USFW both already knew about this thread?
Good work y'all. :thumb:
I think the best we can do is bring it to the attention of parties concerned, right.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by WSTREPS »

And Walmart has sold whale meat in Japan! AAHHHHHH. Yawn.
The focus of this thread isn't about the selling of endangered species. Its about doing it illegally . That's two different things. Whale meat isn't somehow slipping thru the cracks and popping up on the shelves of a WALMART owned business.

WALMART didn't open stores in Japan and start selling whale meat. They gradually bought out a company that stocks whale meat in Japan. Bottom line. Its legal. Its not even a case where the government is saying that its illegal to deal in a certain species and then just lets it go on like it is. In Japan selling whale meat is flat out legal.


The company's that sell whale meat in Japan are playing by the rules that are set by the Japanese government. People might not like it but the Japanese government says it OK. They support it. Their house their rules.

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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by justinm »

What does Whale meat have to do with selling crocodiles? This is a red herring.
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by chris_mcmartin »

justinm wrote:What does Whale meat have to do with selling crocodiles? This is a red herring.
So now whale meat is being mislabeled as red herring? Curiouser and curiouser. :P

Where's the "silly looking smiley with the funny hair" these days?
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by crocdoc »

WSTREPS wrote: The focus of this thread isn't about the selling of endangered species. Its about doing it illegally .
Although that may be your take on it, it hasn't actually been stated as such. Reference has been made to the ethics of selling endangered species, but not the legality within China. As far as I know it may be perfectly legal to sell Philippine crocodiles in China (if that is even what those crocodiles were).
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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by WSTREPS »

Legality has been directly referenced to in this thread,


Any argument about the ethics of selling "endangered wildlife " directly involves the legality's of the deal. That's what is at the heart of it all, anything beyond and then your talking about the ethics involved in dealing any kind of wildlife not just "endangered."

You can legally buy, sell, trade, eat, skin many types of "endangered wildlife ." The people that legally engage in these activity's are playing by the rules that other people have made. There's nothing unethical about that unless you break those rules.

Using the Philippine crocs as an example. Philippine crocodiles are as endangered as a crocodile gets but they are bred by a government-run Crocodile Farm and sold for commercial use. This is approved by the cites commission. When you see that term "commercial use" in conjunction with Crocodile Farm, your talking about skins and food. Not the live trade. Is the legal production and "commercial use" of such a highly endanged species ethical?

So now whale meat is being mislabeled as red herring? Curiouser and curiouser.


Supposedly Dolphin sometimes gets mislabeled as whale meat. They DNA test the meat. I don't think you could pass off red herring as whale or would even want to. The Jewish community in Japan is to small to waste potential whale meat sales by trying to pass it off as herring.

Whales, dolphins and porpoises are all legal to sell in Japan. They hunt and kill them for scientific purposes then sell the meat to commercial distributors.They were granted special permits for this by the gods of international wildlife trade.

What does Whale meat have to do with selling crocodiles?


Both are examples of legally commercialized endangered animals. Both have long, controversial and dubious issues surrounding their commercial usage. WALMART is involved with the regional sale of both of these animals. Both are found in the grocery section. Both are covered by the same international wildlife law enforcement agencies. You can deep fry both so they might taste the same.



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Re: Herps Sold at Wal Mart (in China)

Post by justinm »

Ernie this is what I meant by Red Herring. Click the yellow letters.
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