Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

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Reptiluvr
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Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Reptiluvr »

Snakes are the most numerous so I'm putting them as one post and all the other herps in another. I spent my days doing radio telemetry with Northern Bobwhites on a reclaimed coal mine. Most of the cooler finds were actually by a friend who works on oil leases on private properties. Some of these are reposts.

Garter Snakes were surprisingly not as common as I would have thought. I found less than a dozen in my time there.
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Eastern Garter Snake (Thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Eastern Garter Snake (Thamnophis sirtalis) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Eastern Garter Snake (Thamnophis sirtalis) by photographerp, on Flickr

Black Ratsnakes were the most common besides Black Racers. Can anyone tell me exactly what kind of intergrades these are? Lifer.
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Black Ratsnake (Pantherophis obsoletus) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Black Rat Snake (Pantherophis intergrade) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Black Rat Snake (Pantherophis intergrade) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Black Rat Snake (Pantherophis intergrade) by photographerp, on Flickr

As expected Black Racers were the most common snake around.
This one was found with its head in a hole.
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Snake in A Hole by photographerp, on Flickr

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Juvenile Southern Black Racer (Coluber constrictor priapus) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Juvenile Southern Black Racer (Coluber constrictor priapus) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Juvenile Southern Black Racer (Coluber constrictor priapus) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Southern Black Racer (Coluber constrictor priapus) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Southern Black Racer (Coluber constrictor priapus) by photographerp, on Flickr

In some areas Ringnecks were under every stone it seemed. Dried up creek beds seemed to be the most productive. Might be a lifer subspecies for me.
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Northern Ringneck Snake (Diadophis punctatus edwardsii) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Northern Ringneck Snake (Diadophis punctatus edwardsii) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Northern Ringneck Snake (Diadophis punctatus edwardsii) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Northern Ringneck Snake (Diadophis punctatus edwardsii) by photographerp, on Flickr

My first snake in Kentucky was a new species for me when I found this Black Kingsnake. I found several more adults and KFW employees found a juvenile. Lifer.
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Black Kingsnake (Lampropeltis getula nigra) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Juvenile Black Kingsnake (Lampropeltis getula niger)) by photographerp, on Flickr

Midland Water Snakes were the most common aquatic species. I also have some great action photos of some Midlands eating some toads in a friends terrarium. Lifer.
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Midland Water Snake (Nerodia sipedon pleuralis) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Midland Water Snake (Nerodia sipedon pleuralis) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Juvenile Midland Water Snake (Nerodia sipedon pleuralis) by photographerp, on Flickr

This Nerodia rhombifer was a nice surprise from my friend at a little over 4 feet. He also had a Black Racer he gave me the same day that was easily 5 ft. Lifer.
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Diamondback Water Snake (Nerodia rhombifer) by photographerp, on Flickr

I wish I could take credit for find this snake but it was caught by a KFW biologist in someone's front yard and I snapped some pics while it awaited relocation. Lifer.
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Copperbelly Water Snake (Nerodia erythrogaster neglecta) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Copperbelly Water Snake (Nerodia erythrogaster neglecta) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Ventral side of a Copperbelly Water Snake (Nerodia erythrogaster neglecta) by photographerp, on Flickr


This was a surprise early on in my stay. Lifer.
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Eastern Hognose (Heterodon platirhinos) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Eastern Hognose (Heterodon platirhinos) by photographerp, on Flickr


This was a first for me and with it being particularly ugly and in shed it stumped me until I took out my guide. Found by my friend also. Lifer.
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Redbelly Snake (Storeria occipitomaculata) by photographerp, on Flickr

Probably my favorite finds in Kentucky. One of my new favorite species in North America. In some hardwood areas with rich soils these were fairly common.
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Midwestern Worm Snake (Carphopis amoenus helenae) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Midwestern Worm Snake (Carphopis amoenus helenae) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Midwestern Worm Snake (Carphophis amoenus helenae) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Midwestern Worm Snake (Carphophis amoenus helenae) by photographerp, on Flickr

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Midwestern Worm Snake (Carphophis amoenus helenae) by photographerp, on Flickr
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Jason B
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Jason B »

Nice post and photos, sir. A Western Coalfield N. rombifer is an excellent find! I look forward to your non-snake post.

-Jb
jimoo742
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by jimoo742 »

Nice. Love the area. Was never able to find a diamondback myself.
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Phil Peak
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Phil Peak »

Nice post! Kentucky rat snakes in general are hard to define at the subspecies level. My opinion is that a large portion of the state is populated by an intergradient form of black x gray rat snake based on a suite of intermediate characteristics that most specimens exhibit. On the hand, if you subscibe to the latest classification they are all considered Midland rat snakes.

Phil
hellihooks
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by hellihooks »

very nice post... loved the 1st Blk rat shot... :thumb: jim
Reptiluvr
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Reptiluvr »

Yea this whole thing with Rat Snakes is confusing me. I don't even know what I'm catching any more because every year it has a new name. I assume these were a black x grey intergrade but for all I know there's a 3rd cryptic species that was just elevated 6 or 7 seconds ago...
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ahockenberry
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by ahockenberry »

Great shots - love the Midland Water Snake especially
Sean
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Sean »

:mrgreen:
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Phil Peak
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Phil Peak »

Sean wrote:
Reptiluvr wrote:Yea this whole thing with Rat Snakes is confusing me. I don't even know what I'm catching any more because every year it has a new name. I assume these were a black x grey intergrade but for all I know there's a 3rd cryptic species that was just elevated 6 or 7 seconds ago...
Great post with some fantastic shots!

Regarding the ratsnakes up there, I still wonder why people think they are intergrades with the greys. Of every one I've found and seen from others in Tennessee and Kentucky, not one has ever remotely looked even somewhat close to a grey ratsnake. Some have looked almost just like adult black ratsnakes but most adults have a very discernible pattern and vary in different shades of brown with reds and even yellows mixed in. I found one years ago that was actually more yellowish than anything and had somewhat reddish blotches. One of the meanest snakes I remember. ;)
It is subjective and rat snakes display an incredible amount of variation throughout their range. However, you should consider that all so called gray rat snakes do not necessarily look like those known as the white oak phase of north Florida which you are probably most familiar with. Those from other parts of their range such as Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee and Kentucky can look quite different and are often much darker in pattern than those from the Florida panhandle. For purposes of contrast you should have a look at what is known as black rat snakes from places such as Pennsylvania, New York and the mountainous regions of Virginia and North Carolina for example. These snakes are often very dark, nearly black and with very little discenible pattern. The rat snakes of Kentucky often times more closely resemble what is known as a gray rat than the phenotype accepted as the black rat snake. Most examples tend to look as intermediates between these two subspecies.

Phil
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justinm
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by justinm »

I have to agree with Phil here. I've seen them looking much different in extreme Southern Illinois on into Kentucky. I will try to dig up photos of the "gray" rats.
Sean
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Sean »

:)
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Phil Peak
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Phil Peak »

Sean wrote:I am very aware of how much different the ratsnakes look across their range. Which is why I stated how much different they look in TN and KY compared to the actual "greys" in the south. The "white oak" phase is much brighter indeed yet I was comparing to "greys" that go from N FL up into Georgia which are darker, many with more brown in them, and some of them almost with an overall grey/brown coloration. Quite different looking than any of those well north that do not look like "greys" at all.
I'm not sure if I follow you Sean. Most rat snakes in Kentucky do not have any black on them at all. The majority are shades of gray and brown with some examples exhibiting some yellow coloration here and there. The darkest, and those that are most likely to actually have black as a color componant are found along the Mississippi River in the western portion of the state and those in the extreme east in the mountains.

Here is a selection of a few rat snakes I have photographed across the state,

http://kentuckysnakes.shutterfly.com/pictures/87

Phil
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Greg Theos
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Greg Theos »

Sean wrote:Some have looked almost just like adult black ratsnakes but most adults have a very discernible pattern and vary in different shades of brown with reds and even yellows mixed in. I found one years ago that was actually more yellowish than anything and had somewhat reddish blotches. One of the meanest snakes I remember. ;)
I lived in Memphis, TN for over 30 years and spent more than 20 of those years catching snakes around there. Rat snakes were common throughout the city and I would guess that I found many dozens of them, probably well over 100, and saw even more DOR's. I have seen a few 5+ ft adults from there that were ultra-light Grey, like ones from the deep south. My friend, Jim Curlin, found a 6.5-7 ft rat snake (biggest one I have ever seen) there in the late 1980's that had absolutely no black rat influence. Anyone would have identified them as 100% Grey rats, though 80-90% were similar to what you have described. I also found a handful that looked 100% Black rat, like specimens from way up north. When I lived in Chattanooga, TN, I found the variation among rat snakes there to be the same, and did find a 4+ ft adult that looked like a white oak runner. I always thought of them as intergrades and had no reason to question it.

They are mean as hell up there, too. Most of the adults I find down here in Florida are pretty docile.
Reptiluvr
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Reptiluvr »

I would say the color of these snakes in western KY are much more like Gray Rat Snakes than Black Rat Snakes. It's morphology and overall build seems much more like a Black Rat Snake to me. Their bulk and beefy head remind me of the Texas Rat Snakes I caught in central TX. Every one I found had yellow in it. One had so much yellow it kind of looked green (the one photographed on regular grass in a front lawn) on the paler bands. Most of these were mean too!
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Sean »

:o
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Phil Peak
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Phil Peak »

Image

I don't know what to tell you Sean. There's not a single black snake on the link I provided out of over 30 photo's. The darkest are those from along the Mississippi River (Fulton, Hickman and Carlisle counties) as I noted. Aside from this there are a bunch of brown and gray snakes of which many have a suffusion of yellow.

Remember, I didn't refer to the rat snakes of Kentucky as gray rats, but rather as an intergradient population. Even the snake which you posted from near Lexington is not a black snake. It does have portions especially along the tail which are nearly black from what I can see, but this is still far different than a text book black rat snake.

As I mentioned in my initial post - these snakes are difficult to define.

For what its worth, the vast majority of KY rat snakes that we handle are usually very docile with most examples never attempting to bite. There are exceptions but in general these are big calm snakes.

Phil
Sean
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Sean »

:P
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Phil Peak
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Phil Peak »

I guess they beat us to the punch Sean. For all intents and purposes this whole discussion is moot since they are already describing the whole lot of these snakes from the Apalachians to the Mississippi as Midland rats.

Phil
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Nigel Smith
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Nigel Smith »

That hognose was pretty cool. As well as that Copperbelly watersnake. I cant wait to get out to that part of the state.

Thanks for sharing.
Barry R
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Barry R »

great stuff!
Reptiluvr
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Re: Western KY March-August 2012: Snakes

Post by Reptiluvr »

I think the overall appearance better fits a Black x Yellow intergrade in my minds eye. Especially since greys have a head more resembling a corn snake. Both Black and Yellow rats have the large head of these KY individuals. Range maps don't seem to push yellows that far north though.
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