Arizona S12

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KatiyaLilith
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Arizona S12

Post by KatiyaLilith »

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Atrox kept biting the Mojave :( had to separate them in to different tanks.... only to have the Atrox longe a venom loogie through the screen at my face :) Spitey little one!

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We named her Jup :)

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Gila Babe

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Ive been finding a lot of night snakes lately....

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mojave rattle snake from Golden Valley AZ

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gecko

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habitat

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DaveR
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by DaveR »

Nice Gila. I love the habitat shots too.
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Joshua Jones
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Joshua Jones »

Beautiful animals. That kingsnake looks like a beast and that gila is just adorable. :beer:

I have to ask, though, what size is that cage? Your ruber, Mardy, has a beautiful setup, but this one appears to be on the small side. Either way, for your own safety, you should invest in cages without screen tops. Vision, Animal Plastics, and Boaphile make some excellent cages that are specifically designed for hots and large constrictors. I know they can be expensive, (much cheaper, though, if you build the cages yourself) but that's the cost of being a responsible venomous keeper.

When one crote keeper gets tagged, it makes all crote keepers look bad, regardless of how unfair that is.
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ThamnElegans24
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by ThamnElegans24 »

Not to mention I'm pretty sure collecting animals in Arizona and taking them to California is illegal.
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KatiyaLilith
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by KatiyaLilith »

I didn't collect anything in AZ, but the two rattlers had to be moved away from the populated road so that arizonians don't kill them with their cars, I've seen way too many dead snakes on the road ..
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rpecora
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by rpecora »

Joshua Jones wrote:Your ruber, Mardy, has a beautiful setup, but this one appears to be on the small side.
Did I miss the ruber?
ThamnElegans24 wrote:Not to mention I'm pretty sure collecting animals in Arizona and taking them to California is illegal.
That's not entirely accurate.
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ThamnElegans24
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by ThamnElegans24 »

That's not entirely accurate.
This is quoted from the 2011 & 2012 Arizona Reptile and Amphibian hunting regulations.

R12-4-402
Live Wildlife: Unlawful Acts
A. An individual shall not perform any of the following activities with live wildlife unless authorized by this Chapter or A.R.S. Title 3, Chapter 16:
1. Import any live wildlife into the state;
2. Export any live wildlife from the state;


A.R.S. Title 3, Chapter 16 pertains to Aquaculture, and I don't see anywhere in the "this Chapter" that allows it either.

Now to be fair, KatiyaLilith never said that any of the animals in the post were taken home. But I don't know of many people who name animals they don't keep.

And the ruber Josh mentioned is in another thread by KatiyaLilith.
Aaron Mills
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Aaron Mills »

KatiyaLilith wrote:I didn't collect anything in AZ, but the two rattlers had to be moved away from the populated road so that arizonians don't kill them with their cars, I've seen way too many dead snakes on the road ..
Isn't that what a hook is for? Why stress them out and put them together where they can potentially kill each other?
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cachoron
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by cachoron »

awsome pics :beer:
congrats :D
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rpecora
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by rpecora »

ThamnElegans24 wrote:
That's not entirely accurate.
This is quoted from the 2011 & 2012 Arizona Reptile and Amphibian hunting regulations.

R12-4-402
Live Wildlife: Unlawful Acts
A. An individual shall not perform any of the following activities with live wildlife unless authorized by this Chapter or A.R.S. Title 3, Chapter 16:
1. Import any live wildlife into the state;
2. Export any live wildlife from the state;


A.R.S. Title 3, Chapter 16 pertains to Aquaculture, and I don't see anywhere in the "this Chapter" that allows it either.

Now to be fair, KatiyaLilith never said that any of the animals in the post were taken home. But I don't know of many people who name animals they don't keep.

And the ruber Josh mentioned is in another thread by KatiyaLilith.
R12-4-404. Possession of Live Wildlife Taken Under an Arizona Hunting or Fishing License

A. An individual may take wildlife from the wild alive under a valid Arizona hunting or fishing license only if there is a Commission Order that prescribes a live bag and possession limit for that wildlife and the individual possesses the appropriate license. An individual may possess, transport, place on educational display, photograph, propagate, or kill for personal use any wildlife taken under an Arizona hunting or fishing license, except that live baitfish may be possessed and transported only in accordance with R12-4-316. An individual shall dispose of any wildlife taken under an Arizona hunting or fishing license as prescribed by subsection (B).

B. An individual who possesses wildlife or offspring of wildlife under this Section shall only dispose of the wildlife or its offspring by giving it as a gift, exporting it to another state or jurisdiction, or as directed in writing by the Department.
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DaneConley
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by DaneConley »

One of the many reasons I dont take herps out of the wild, because of how many laws there are. Only a matter of time that one is broken.
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Joshua Jones
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Joshua Jones »

Aaron Mills wrote:
KatiyaLilith wrote:I didn't collect anything in AZ, but the two rattlers had to be moved away from the populated road so that arizonians don't kill them with their cars, I've seen way too many dead snakes on the road ..
Isn't that what a hook is for? Why stress them out and put them together where they can potentially kill each other?
Agreed.

It is also a fact that more than one study has shown that rattlesnakes can be highly dependent on a specific home range. They know where to hide, hunt, and hibernate in their home range. I've read studies that claim a mortality rate of 80% or more among crotes that are moved more than a mile from their home range. By stressing these animals (you have made it clear that your actions caused the atrox to bite the scute), and moving them out of their environment, you may well have killed both of them just as surely as the tires on a speeding car could have done.

If you want to help the snakes put them off the side of the road, in the direction they were headed when you found them. That's really the only thing you can do to help them out.

On a side note, I'll expound upon a point that Ben made. I don't know of many non-collectors who hike with bags, name every snake they help cross the road, and carry glass terrariums in their car for those, "just in case," scenarios. :roll: If you don't want people to make that connection, you should try not to post those kinds of photos. They're not likely to impress people on a forum like this, and they'll only reduce your odds of getting help from the locals. But who knows, maybe you don't want to see better stuff on your next AZ trip. Maybe atrox and scutes are just your thing. :lol:
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KatiyaLilith
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by KatiyaLilith »

Joshua Jones wrote:
Aaron Mills wrote:
KatiyaLilith wrote:I didn't collect anything in AZ, but the two rattlers had to be moved away from the populated road so that arizonians don't kill them with their cars, I've seen way too many dead snakes on the road ..
Isn't that what a hook is for? Why stress them out and put them together where they can potentially kill each other?


Agreed.

It is also a fact that more than one study (Reference? ) has shown that rattlesnakes can be highly dependent on a specific home range. They know where to hide, hunt, and hibernate in their home range. I've read studies (Reference?) that claim a mortality rate of 80% or more among crotes that are moved more than a mile from their home range. By stressing these animals (you have made it clear that your actions caused the atrox to bite the scute), and moving them out of their environment, you may well have killed both of them just as surely as the tires on a speeding car could have done.

If you want to help the snakes put them off the side of the road, in the direction they were headed when you found them. That's really the only thing you can do to help them out.

What makes you so sure of this? Can you talk to the snakes, you understand what they think and want? do you have a degree in herpetology? Do you conduct "actual" scientific research in this area affiliated with some sort of academic or research organization? Where are the references to the studies you mention? The web articles unfortunately aren't a reliable source of information, but papers published in scientific journals are. Do you have access to those journals?



[/quote] On a side note, I'll expound upon a point that Ben made. I don't know of many non-collectors who hike with bags, name every snake they help cross the road, and carry glass terrariums in their car for those, "just in case," scenarios. :roll: If you don't want people to make that connection, you should try not to post those kinds of photos. They're not likely to impress people on a forum like this, and they'll only reduce your odds of getting help from the locals. But who knows, maybe you don't want to see better stuff on your next AZ trip. Maybe atrox and scutes are just your thing. :lol:[/quote]


I know you're trying to be mean, but seriously! :) you have a few pictures and a line of text, but you already jump to conclusions so that you can indulge in attacking someone you know nothing about. Not smart, rather insecure and infantile... just bad manners in general.
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KatiyaLilith
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by KatiyaLilith »

Aaron Mills wrote:
KatiyaLilith wrote:I didn't collect anything in AZ, but the two rattlers had to be moved away from the populated road so that arizonians don't kill them with their cars, I've seen way too many dead snakes on the road ..
Isn't that what a hook is for? Why stress them out and put them together where they can potentially kill each other?

How would you position them for photographs without the hook? I suppose you do it with your bare hands? Also I didn't say I put them together, but that i had to separate them so that they don't hurt each other, so really you question makes no sense.
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KatiyaLilith
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by KatiyaLilith »

Thats what im talking about! :) Thanks!
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Joshua Jones
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Joshua Jones »

Really? :lol:
KatiyaLilith wrote: Can you talk to the snakes, you understand what they think and want? do you have a degree in herpetology?
I certainly should. I observe hundreds, in the wild, every year.
KatiyaLilith wrote: Do you conduct "actual" scientific research in this area affiliated with some sort of academic or research organization?
Only the research I'm doing for my book. Do you?
KatiyaLilith wrote: Where are the references to the studies you mention? The web articles unfortunately aren't a reliable source of information, but papers published in scientific journals are. Do you have access to those journals?
I certainly do. Funny enough, so do you. Hare, McNally (1997), and Nowak (1998) cover the atrox pretty well. I can list other studies if you want, but I won't post links, as Jeroen did. That would rob you of the rewards of doing your own research. Besides, it seems you distrust the resources available on the internet...
KatiyaLilith wrote: I know you're trying to be mean, but seriously! :) you have a few pictures and a line of text, but you already jump to conclusions so that you can indulge in attacking someone you know nothing about. Not smart, rather insecure and infantile... just bad manners in general.
Try to remember that you posted those photos. I just told you how it looks to an outside observer. I'm sure that scute would prefer my bad manners over those of the person who somehow managed to get it bit by an atrox. :lol:

Edit:italics
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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

KatiyaLilith wrote: Also I didn't say I put them together
Yet there’s your second pic. :?
fangmaster
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by fangmaster »

You guys shouldn't draw conclusions on someone you don't know! Katiya Is well educated, and experienced, she has herped all over the world and is working on her doctorate degree! So she names a few snakes she finds? Its kind of cute, so what? She possesses all licenses and permits she needs under the law, and rarely collects anything! Ya some pics shouldn't be posted because of the flack it can cause, but she is new here so show her some direction, and some professional courtesy, and leave the attitude out of here!
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KatiyaLilith
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by KatiyaLilith »

with no education and no affiliation to any research group? good luck publishing! :)

Joshua Jones wrote:
KatiyaLilith wrote: Can you talk to the snakes, you understand what they think and want? do you have a degree in herpetology?
I certainly should. I observe hundreds, in the wild, every year.
KatiyaLilith wrote: Do you conduct "actual" scientific research in this area affiliated with some sort of academic or research organization?
Only the research I'm doing for my book. Do you?
KatiyaLilith wrote: Where are the references to the studies you mention? The web articles unfortunately aren't a reliable source of information, but papers published in scientific journals are. Do you have access to those journals?
I certainly do. Funny enough, so do you. Hare, McNally (1997), and Nowak (1998) cover the atrox pretty well. I can list other studies if you want, but I won't post links, as Jeroen did. That would rob you of the rewards of doing your own research. Besides, it seems you distrust the resources available on the internet...
KatiyaLilith wrote: I know you're trying to be mean, but seriously! :) you have a few pictures and a line of text, but you already jump to conclusions so that you can indulge in attacking someone you know nothing about. Not smart, rather insecure and infantile... just bad manners in general.
Try to remember that you posted those photos. I just told you how it looks to an outside observer. I'm sure that scute would prefer my bad manners over those of the person who somehow managed to get it bit by an atrox. :lol:

Edit:italics
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Joshua Jones
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Joshua Jones »

First off, Fangmaster, the fact remains that she improperly relocated rattlesnakes, put them together in a tiny cage (directly causing one of them to get bit), and then proudly posted photos of her misadventures on this forum. That kind of behavior deserves to be chastised.

Furthermore, she has been less than honest with our members (see Jeroen's comment) and has insisted on arguing with people who have demonstrated the fact that they have actually done their research. She even argued with Aaron, even though she clearly couldn't understand his comment, despite the straightforward and sensible way in which it was written. If she's so confident that her actions were honorable, why did she take the photos of the guy with the pillowcase down? Why not explain herself, as she has clearly been trying, albeit rather clumsily (if not fictitiously), to do?

My first comment was made without attitude, but rather, a desire to protect our hobby from the further harm that behavior like this is sure to cause. She's the one who decided to pursue this argument in the tone that it has taken. An example:
KatiyaLilith wrote: the two rattlers had to be moved away from the populated road so that arizonians don't kill them with their cars..
Pretty snarky, if you ask me. I'll admit that I'm an arrogant prick, but that's not what were arguing here. You can't post photos of behavior like this and expect a standing ovation.

And now, after hearing an argument that she can't disagree with (BTW, she still hasn't answered the question in my last post), she's decided to attack my education? My ability to get a book published? Really?

Nevertheless, given that she has proven the fact that she has, at best, a meager grip on the English language in it's written form (to wit: punctuation, capitalization, and even comprehension), I'll be sure to take that particular insult with a grain of salt. I'm sure her doctoral thesis ( :roll: ) should make for an entertaining read. :lol:

But rest assured, the futility of trying to explain these things to this woman has become infinitely clear. Barring any further insults that might require a response, I'm done with this thread, this woman, and her unethical herping practices.
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by fangmaster »

Ok Josh, I do understand the arguement here, but as I stated before, she is new, so protocol should be taught in a positive way, she felt attacked, so she reacted. So did you. I'm trying to mediate here, and like I said before, what's posted here should be watched as not to give the wrong impression! We went herping tonight, and talked about the post, that's why the late response. I have either herped with or know personally a lot of experienced herpers here and defenitely don't want to cause bad blood between any of them, we are all on the same page, but also have to consider others that are new and you know that this field is constantly changing, and laws are becoming increasingly strict, while they bulldoze our favorite spots into oblivion for a parking lot or strip mall! Like you, I'm done with this, Katiya is a good friend of mine, so even if she came on less than friendly, I can vouch for her character, she is a good person who wants the same thing we all want conservation and preservation of our beloved herps. The snakes were relocated less than 1/4 mile from the road, probably even less than that, because they were relocated on foot. so maybe "Relocated" is the wrong word, "Moved" is more approprate. Well I hope everyone can cool it down, and lets put all this to a logical conclusion.
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KatiyaLilith
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by KatiyaLilith »

My thesis is certainly beyond the scope of this humble desert dweller :)
Next time i see the snake id have to stop and ask myself, What Would Joshua Jones Do? The brightest young mind of the high desert! If only my English skills were better, maybe then id be able to talk to snakes and write books about it. :)
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Joshua Jones
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Joshua Jones »

Joshua Jones wrote: Barring any further insults that might require a response, I'm done with this thread, this woman, and her unethical herping practices.
Fangmaster, since you seem to be the more mature of the pair, I'll answer you first.

The scute still got bit. It was photographed, in a glass terrarium, with the atrox that bit it. There are photos of her putting the atrox in a bag. Why, pray tell, did she then put it in a cage with another (stressed out) venomous snake? Furthermore, why turn around put it in another cage, as Katiya indicated that she did? Did she then tote that cage a quarter of a mile out into the desert? I sincerely doubt that.

I'll be perfectly honest with you, Fangmaster. The timing of your responses, in comparison with hers, would seem to indicate that you might be the person holding the pillowcase in the photo she deleted. Am I correct in that assumption? Just curious...
KatiyaLilith wrote: My thesis is certainly beyond the scope of this humble desert dweller :)
I certainly doubt that. I'm better with mathematics than I am with English. Tread carefully...
KatiyaLilith wrote: Next time i see the snake id have to stop and ask myself, What Would Joshua Jones Do?
I'm sure the snakes would appreciate that. It's a better strategy than the one you've shown us here...
KatiyaLilith wrote: The brightest young mind of the high desert!
Stop. I'm blushing... :lol:
KatiyaLilith wrote: If only my English skills were better, maybe then id be able to talk to snakes and write books about it. :)
Not a chance! You, write a book? :lol: :lol: :lol:

But...if your English skills were better you might understand that I never said that I could talk to snakes. The word I used was, "should." I'd tell you to consult a dictionary, but I understand how that might be difficult for you, seeing as how those two words would be found in one that was written in English. :)
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Scott Waters »

This is veering way off course. Some good discussion was being had, and then it left the rails. Bring it back.

Thanks,
Scott
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Brandon La Forest
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Brandon La Forest »

KatiyaLilith wrote:My thesis is certainly beyond the scope of this humble desert dweller :)
Next time i see the snake id have to stop and ask myself, What Would Joshua Jones Do? The brightest young mind of the high desert! If only my English skills were better, maybe then id be able to talk to snakes and write books about it. :)
I do wan't to say that your behavior is not indicative of someone who claims to have the level of education that you say you have. Just because you have a formal education does not make you better or more knowledgeable about these animals. I understand that you felt attacked, however that is not a reason to try to belittle people simply based on the fact that you believe that you are somehow more deserving or better that other people here. If you were as "smart" as you claim to be you would have already known about how detrimental it is to move rattlesnakes away from where they were found.

I find it very sad that people in the academic field sometimes take the line of thought that they are simply better because they obtained a diploma, which absolutely says nothing more than you completed your requirements to get it. Acting like you deserve respect because of that is a flawed line of thought. Respect is earned and shouldn't be demanded, let your actions earn you the respect you think you are somehow entitled to. There are a lot of people here who have high levels of education and I have to say that you are one of the first I have seen demanding respect based on that. A piece of paper does not mean you know anything about the snakes that you claim to care so much about.

-Brandon-
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ThamnElegans24
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by ThamnElegans24 »

Thanks for correcting me rpecora. It appears that AZ G&F decided to leave that bit out of there reptile and amphibian regulations handout.

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/h_f/regulatio ... hibian.pdf

But since it's part of the general regulations, I'm sure it still applies to reptiles and amphibians.

KatiyaLilith,
I apologize for making assumptions. It's something I'm prone to do.
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rpecora
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by rpecora »

ThamnElegans24 wrote:Thanks for correcting me rpecora. It appears that AZ G&F decided to leave that bit out of there reptile and amphibian regulations handout.

http://www.azgfd.gov/pdfs/h_f/regulatio ... hibian.pdf

But since it's part of the general regulations, I'm sure it still applies to reptiles and amphibians.
It can be misleading, but they cover their ass:
GAME AND FISH COMMISSION RULES
This summary of reptile and amphibian regulations is prepared for convenience only. It is not a legal document as it does not contain all the laws and regulations related to reptiles and amphibians. For additional information, contact an Arizona Game and Fish Department office.
fangmaster
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by fangmaster »

No Joshua, it wasn't me, I wasn't there. It is unfortunate that the snake got bit, but you must know Atrox are known for their nasty attitude, but what I heard the bitten snake was fine. What nobody seems to get here that the snakes were released in their home territory, not miles away, so everything turned out ok!
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by hellihooks »

One things for sure... on a national forum like this, you mis-id something, story and photos seem 'off'... anything really... someones gonna mention it. We in fact 'police ourselves' pretty well... whether legal issues, ethical claims, factual statements... you name it... and frankly I wouldn't have it any other way. :D And sometimes a lot is lost online, communication-wise. What's meant as constructive, sounds negative... things get taken wrong, ect. It ain't perfect, but still the best around... :thumb:
I think it's cool to have a chick (no offense intended) join the already small minority of crote-lovers, no matter how experienced or inexperienced she might be. I'd rather look for things that unite us, than divide us.
Jim (the TRUE sage of the Mojave) :crazyeyes: :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Mike VanValen
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Mike VanValen »

Brandon La Forest wrote:
I do wan't to say that your behavior is not indicative of someone who claims to have the level of education that you say you have. Just because you have a formal education does not make you better or more knowledgeable about these animals. I understand that you felt attacked, however that is not a reason to try to belittle people simply based on the fact that you believe that you are somehow more deserving or better that other people here. If you were as "smart" as you claim to be you would have already known about how detrimental it is to move rattlesnakes away from where they were found.

I find it very sad that people in the academic field sometimes take the line of thought that they are simply better because they obtained a diploma, which absolutely says nothing more than you completed your requirements to get it. Acting like you deserve respect because of that is a flawed line of thought. Respect is earned and shouldn't be demanded, let your actions earn you the respect you think you are somehow entitled to. There are a lot of people here who have high levels of education and I have to say that you are one of the first I have seen demanding respect based on that. A piece of paper does not mean you know anything about the snakes that you claim to care so much about.

-Brandon-
Amen.

I have always believed that a little tough love is important in these matters. I know, I know...young herpers will get discouraged and what-not.

Katiya - My advice would be to take all of this with a grain of salt, continue to do your thing, perhaps think about altering your handling techniques and continue to share your photos. And don't forget the AZ crew is hard for a reason.

Happy Herping :beer:
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jordo
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by jordo »

fangmaster wrote:It is unfortunate that the snake got bit, but you must know Atrox are known for their nasty attitude
A pretty good reason not to enclose it with another snake ;)

Thanks for sharing the pics, I'd love to see a Gila one day, very jealous!
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Norman D
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Norman D »

I usually don't post on these discussions, but I am bored waiting for some laundry to be finished.
fangmaster wrote:you must know Atrox are known for their nasty attitude, but what I heard the bitten snake was fine.
Atrox are given a bad reputation for a nasty attitude, but they are defensive - like almost all animals. If some big animal tried to pick you up with a hook and move you far away from where you were going, would you not be defensive? I have observed a lot of rattlesnakes in a short amount of time, but I have never seen an atrox act nasty without reason. Many people give atrox a reason to react nasty. They react to our actions.

How do you know the bitten snake was fine? Was the snake monitored for a few weeks after. Many rattlesnakes do live after a bite, but not all do. It was bad judgment to put those snakes together - actually any snakes of different and/or same species together (disease/parasite transmission). Lots of snakes do live sympatrically together, but it doesn't mean we should expose them together when we want. Another encounter means another chance for exposure. What's done is done, hopefully we learn from our mistakes. Yes, I have made costly mistakes myself and try not to repeat them - for the safety of the animals and myself.

KatiyaLilith,
Education doesn't necessarily provide experience, just a means to gain it. A degree doesn't make someone smarter, but it does show dedication. But it doesn't give you the right to throw it in someone's face. I believe we all can learn something from everyone - what to do or what not to do. There are many with and without degrees/certifications on this forum, but the our dedication and passion for herpetology is what brings us all together here. We all have different perspectives and similar ones too. I am sure you are dedicated and passionate about what you do, and I know Josh is dedicated and passionate in what he does. Obviously the arguments show both of your passion of your beliefs. Josh is a nice, forgiving guy and I even think he would go herping with you if differences are set aside.

Looks like you had a great time in AZ as many people do. I know I sure as hell have a great time in Arizona over 300 days a year! Please be careful when dealing with venomous snakes and please don't repeat the mistake of putting rattlesnakes together. Life is already hard for animals we appreciate especially with human activities such as habitat destruction, human despise, and global warming, so we have to try to be as responsible as we can for the safety of the animals and ourselves. And please when you move a rattlesnake off the road, don't move it far away from where you found it. There is much documentation online on the subject- scholarly and from many of the dedicated observers on this board. Remember, just because information isn't in the books or papers written by scientists - doesn't mean it isn't fact. Not everything needs to be published or shared. There are many of us who spend more time in the field than biologists. Many of us do our own research out of our own pockets (some deeper than others lol) but we all have the motivation to do it.

Have fun and be safe!
hellihooks
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by hellihooks »

I recall not so long ago, I was trying to rank So Cal's crotes from mellowest to nastiest... and I got 'spanked' by an AZ member... "If you don't mess with them... all crotes are mellow"

Which of course, is true. It's exactly what I've been telling people for over 3 decades, in herp ed talks. MOST of my crote shots are insitu.

I do crote relocation so don't always have the luxury of 'no interaction' and by 'nasty' I MEANT irascible (short-tempered/ easily-provoked)

I could have argued that point, but instead 'bit my tongue' for I decided that the 'spanking' was worth getting the right message out there... and was ultimately more important than me proving I was without fault. I still stand by my 'ranking'... :crazyeyes: :D jim
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Will Wells
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Will Wells »

Hands off - Insitu photography would have prevented this messy post.
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Daryl Eby
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by Daryl Eby »

hellihooks wrote:I still stand by my 'ranking'... :crazyeyes: :D jim
You've earned the right Jim. Few are ranker. :beer:
hellihooks
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Re: Arizona S12

Post by hellihooks »

Daryl Eby wrote:
hellihooks wrote:I still stand by my 'ranking'... :crazyeyes: :D jim
You've earned the right Jim. Few are ranker. :beer:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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