Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

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Chris Smith
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Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by Chris Smith »

Well it is long overdue but it is finally in print! Click HERE to download the Bullfox paper.

-Chris
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by hellihooks »

Very interesting, Chris... Congrats! jim
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Tim Borski
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by Tim Borski »

Nice job, Chris. Very interesting!
Tim
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jeffpm
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by jeffpm »

Good job, Chris.
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gbin
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by gbin »

That's great, Chris - congratulations!

Gerry
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intermedius
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by intermedius »

Amazing Chris
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SurfinHerp
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by SurfinHerp »

Hi Chris,

Thanks for sharing the link to your intriguing paper. I'm amazed that you guys found two intergeneric hybrids in the same year!!

The paper states that you can't know for sure which "prezygotic isolating mechanism" broke down, but I'm interested to hear what your best guess is. Do you think it's likely a huge, desperate male fox just overpowered a poor female bull in the back alley of a dark burrow somewhere? Or maybe it's more likely that some pheromones got crossed sometime during breeding season, leading to confusion?

Also, on a more practical level, do you think I should worry about keeping my gopher snake together with my rosy boas? They would make really fugly hybrids I'm sure. ;)

Cheers,

Jeff
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by jimoo742 »

I wonder if they are/were fertile.
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by jswingchun »

Being there on the trip where the live Bullfox was flipped, I must say that the reaction of the person who flipped it was pretty funny. Also, there were a lot of snakes under the rock he flipped.

I would say this picture pretty much sums it up.

Image

More pics of the snake are at the bottom of this page:

http://www.herpjournal.com/2009/2009051 ... 90516.html
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by muskiemagnet »

very interesting.

i too question whether they were/are capable of reproducing.

-ben
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Chris Smith
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by Chris Smith »

I suspect they would be fertile. Most hybrid snakes are. There are a lot of hybrid colubrids in the pet-trade.

Chris
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scottriv
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by scottriv »

We all assume that bull snakes and fox snakes are actually a different genus because some scientist described them that way.

Maybe they aren't as different from each other as we think they are.

I have a buddy who artificially inseminates different genus of colubrids with each other and he gets fertile eggs and healthy babies out of crosses that would never see each other in the wild.
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Don Becker
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by Don Becker »

scottriv wrote:We all assume that bull snakes and fox snakes are actually a different genus because some scientist described them that way.
Well, actually we KNOW they are in different genus because some scientists describes them that way. Nature has no concept of what a genus is. It is only a label that we put on things to help us understand them better. Burbrink did lump Pithuophis and Pantherophis together for a while, but it was retracted.
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scottriv
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by scottriv »

Maybe Burbrink was correct when he lumped Pithuophis and Pantherophis together.

The fact that they successfully bred together is certainly evidence towards that direction.
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muskiemagnet
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by muskiemagnet »

scottriv wrote:Maybe Burbrink was correct when he lumped Pithuophis and Pantherophis together.

The fact that they successfully bred together is certainly evidence towards that direction.
gotta admit though, fox snakes are not like your typical rat snake. head shape is much different, also, rats are built a lot better for climbing. maybe their own genus is warranted? i know there has been talk of it.

hey chris, what type of habitat were those two snakes found in(if you know)? typically,they have different preferred habitats. at least they do here in wisconsin. it'd be interesting to know.

-ben
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Chris Smith
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by Chris Smith »

Ben and others-

I believe the Iowa specimen came from a road cut that typically produces fox snakes (maybe Jim S. or "jswingchun" will chime in again).

Erica and I found the Minnesota specimen and it came from an area of MN that has a lot of bullsnakes (rolling sand prairie) but nearby river valleys do have fox snakes.

There is overwhelming molecular and morphological support for the two separate genera (i.e., Pituophis and Pantherophis). The error in Burbrink's paper is just that, an error (he corrects it in subsequent publications - that is how science works). Given that intergenetic hybridization does not appear to be common in wild populations of snakes and lizards, a few documented cases doesn't warrant alarm. Many distantly related species can hybridize if given the chance to do so (as is obvious in captivity). The "Biological Species Concept" is not a good reference for what "is" and "is not" a species; especially not for squamates.

-Chris

MN Specimen as found:
Image
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copperhead
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by copperhead »

Very interesting! I've always been fascinated by hybrids and isolating mechanisms. I wonder if isolation of the pheromones each species use is possible for analysis by chromotography / mass spec. to see how similar they are.

Great pic of the hybrid find, that guy did a great job of capturing all of those specimens. It's often a jailbreak situation!
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Mattrattler
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by Mattrattler »

All I know is when I found the Bullfox in Iowa (yes, I'm the knucklehead in the picture) Jeff LeClere, Jim Scharosch and Mike Pingleton (who were all on that trip) thought I was nuts when I said "I got a Bullsnake, no, Fox Snakes, no...). I have to admit, at this stage in the game (herping all my life practically and am now 42) if I really could tell the difference between a Bullsnake and a Fox Snake, it probably would have been time to hang it up... :) They were much more accepting when they came up close and saw it.

I felt pretty stupid too until we took a close look and Jeff noted his theory on what it was.
Glad there is now a paper to offically prove I'm not an idiot...OK I lobbed that one in.

The paper is awesome. Well done. A pretty cool thing when it happens naturally and isn't a "designer" snake.

I was going to try and work in some "I'm Designer" lyrics, but I'm too tired. QOTSA rocks...
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Matt.O
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by Matt.O »

Congrats Chris, remember seeing this at the Midwest PARC meeting last summer. Very interesting and well done.
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by jswingchun »

Chris Smith wrote:Ben and others-

I believe the Iowa specimen came from a road cut that typically produces fox snakes (maybe Jim S. or "jswingchun" will chime in again).
I have never seen a fox snake or bullsnake in the road cut the bullfox was found in. Racers, garters and milks are all I have seen there. I think Jeff might have mentioned that he knows of fox snakes being found there, but I cannot remember for sure. The surrounding habitat is reasonably fox snakey.
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by Mike Pingleton »

One of the memorable moments in a lifetime of field herping that I will never forget. :thumb: And Jim's picture captures that momentary confuzzlement quite well.
-Mike

(bullfoxes rule!)
Mattrattler wrote:All I know is when I found the Bullfox in Iowa (yes, I'm the knucklehead in the picture) Jeff LeClere, Jim Scharosch and Mike Pingleton (who were all on that trip) thought I was nuts when I said "I got a Bullsnake, no, Fox Snakes, no...). I have to admit, at this stage in the game (herping all my life practically and am now 42) if I really could tell the difference between a Bullsnake and a Fox Snake, it probably would have been time to hang it up... :) They were much more accepting when they came up close and saw it.

I felt pretty stupid too until we took a close look and Jeff noted his theory on what it was.
Glad there is now a paper to offically prove I'm not an idiot...OK I lobbed that one in.

The paper is awesome. Well done. A pretty cool thing when it happens naturally and isn't a "designer" snake.

I was going to try and work in some "I'm Designer" lyrics, but I'm too tired. QOTSA rocks...
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Cole Grover
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Re: Bullfox (Bullsnake x Fox Snake hybrids)

Post by Cole Grover »

Good stuff, guys! I read the article in J.H. a few weeks back and have been meaning to give you a shout-out here on the forum. Time's a bugger, though, so I'm just now getting around to it! It's always nice to see articles by fellow forum-goers. Cool photos, too.

-Cole
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