Foothills of the Himalayas
Moderator: Scott Waters
Foothills of the Himalayas
I just had a week of intensive language school at 7000+ feet elevation up in the mountains here. My schedule was too packed to get much herping in, but the area was beautiful and I saw a number of things I had never seen before. (p.s. – since I’m new to this area, I’m sure I made a number of ID errors, so help me out there if you can.)
The first thunderstorms of the monsoon hit on our first day there. That boded well for snake activity, and sure enough, the next morning my friend and I found this beautiful rat snake crawling up a rat-infested wall on our walk to the school:
Hodgson's Ratsnake (Orthriophis hodgsoni)
Habitat shot, with the crowd that gathered afterwards
The most abundant herp were these skinks, which were usually sunning near rock piles. There are a number of little skink species that are tough to tell apart, but I think I made a decent guess at the ID.
Ladakh Ground Skink (Scincella ladacensis)
Habitat shot
In more forested areas I found these small agamids. I can’t figure out an ID, but after a tip below from Kevin I'm leaning towards Japalura major (Large Mountain Lizard). All the ones I saw appeared to be juveniles, though it’s possible that it’s just a smaller species.
juvenile Large Mountain Lizard (Japalura major)?
Habitat shot
I tried to flip everything I could find. Usually this only landed me scorpions:
But on the second day after the rain, I found this beautiful cat snake under a rock right next to school:
Many-banded Cat Snake (Boiga multifasciata)
My last day in town was my only day off, so I made the most of it with a 15-mile early morning hike. After paralleling a ridge I dropped into a lush forested mountain valley. The birds were gorgeous and numerous, so I combined them into a post here:
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... 19&t=12422
Herps, however, were surprisingly rare. Other than a couple road kills at the beginning and a skink, the only herps I saw were 8 of these huge agamids sunning on rocky outcroppings:
Kashmiri Rock Agamas (Laudakia tuberculata)
Habitat shot
Besides the herps, there were a few conspicuous mammals around:
Rhesus Macaques (Macaca mulatta)
Hanuman Langur (Semnopithecus entellus)
And a few interesting invertebrates
I hope to make it back there in a few months for more work on my language and more hiking. Thanks for taking a look!
The first thunderstorms of the monsoon hit on our first day there. That boded well for snake activity, and sure enough, the next morning my friend and I found this beautiful rat snake crawling up a rat-infested wall on our walk to the school:
Hodgson's Ratsnake (Orthriophis hodgsoni)
Habitat shot, with the crowd that gathered afterwards
The most abundant herp were these skinks, which were usually sunning near rock piles. There are a number of little skink species that are tough to tell apart, but I think I made a decent guess at the ID.
Ladakh Ground Skink (Scincella ladacensis)
Habitat shot
In more forested areas I found these small agamids. I can’t figure out an ID, but after a tip below from Kevin I'm leaning towards Japalura major (Large Mountain Lizard). All the ones I saw appeared to be juveniles, though it’s possible that it’s just a smaller species.
juvenile Large Mountain Lizard (Japalura major)?
Habitat shot
I tried to flip everything I could find. Usually this only landed me scorpions:
But on the second day after the rain, I found this beautiful cat snake under a rock right next to school:
Many-banded Cat Snake (Boiga multifasciata)
My last day in town was my only day off, so I made the most of it with a 15-mile early morning hike. After paralleling a ridge I dropped into a lush forested mountain valley. The birds were gorgeous and numerous, so I combined them into a post here:
http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/vie ... 19&t=12422
Herps, however, were surprisingly rare. Other than a couple road kills at the beginning and a skink, the only herps I saw were 8 of these huge agamids sunning on rocky outcroppings:
Kashmiri Rock Agamas (Laudakia tuberculata)
Habitat shot
Besides the herps, there were a few conspicuous mammals around:
Rhesus Macaques (Macaca mulatta)
Hanuman Langur (Semnopithecus entellus)
And a few interesting invertebrates
I hope to make it back there in a few months for more work on my language and more hiking. Thanks for taking a look!
- Kevin Messenger
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
awesome job!! when you say "foothills of the himalayas" - from which side are you referring? (in other words, what country are you based out of for this language class)
I'm bad on my asian agamids, but if not Calotes, another wide ranging genus is Japalura.
I'm bad on my asian agamids, but if not Calotes, another wide ranging genus is Japalura.
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Nice finds and photos. I must say that my favourite was not a herp but that lovely Red Pierrot (Talicada nyseus). What a beautiful butterfly!
Regards,
David
Regards,
David
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Your rat snake is Orthriophis hodgsoni.
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Thanks for sharing...Especially Orthriophis hodgsoni.
Were you at Mussorie?
Were you at Mussorie?
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Amazing stuff, Jonathan, here and in the bird thread. Hope you're doing well out there!
JimM
JimM
- Kent VanSooy
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
That butterfly is stunning! Thanks Jonathan.
- Chris Smith
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Cool!
-Chris
-Chris
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Wow Jonathan - when you said you were moving, I didn't realize that it would be half way around the world. Considering there are dozens of ethnicities in that region - what language were you studying?
- intermedius
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Just stunning... really amazing area with so much beautiful culture. As far as my sources state, that's pretty high for Boiga multifasciata.
Justin
Justin
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Thanks for all the props! I'm surprised the butterfly came out on top - I saw dozens of butterfly species, but didn't have the patience to photograph them on this outing (birds caught my attention instead). I actually liked the spider more, but the beautiful contrast between its yellow back and bright green ventral stripe just didn't come out on camera as nicely as it was in real life.
John - thank you much for the rat snake ID! Right now I don't have any good guide for the country, and the guide that I was looking at to check that snake against omitted that species altogether.
aodaisho - you nailed it. (Well, technically, a little higher up in Landour). For those who don't know, that's on the Indian side of the mountains, and I'm studying Hindi/Urdu.
Justin - from Google Earth I think I can put the elevation where I found the cat snake at 7285 feet. The rat snake was the same elevation, which isn't unusual for them. What do your sources say as the max for Boiga multifasciata?
Kevin - thanks much for that tip on the lizards. I did some research, and now I'm leaning towards Japalura major (Large Mountain Lizard) as a likely candidate.
John - thank you much for the rat snake ID! Right now I don't have any good guide for the country, and the guide that I was looking at to check that snake against omitted that species altogether.
aodaisho - you nailed it. (Well, technically, a little higher up in Landour). For those who don't know, that's on the Indian side of the mountains, and I'm studying Hindi/Urdu.
Justin - from Google Earth I think I can put the elevation where I found the cat snake at 7285 feet. The rat snake was the same elevation, which isn't unusual for them. What do your sources say as the max for Boiga multifasciata?
Kevin - thanks much for that tip on the lizards. I did some research, and now I'm leaning towards Japalura major (Large Mountain Lizard) as a likely candidate.
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
I should add - after spending almost all of my time in India within the megacities, taking that long hike that brought me to that remote village was a fascinating contrast. I didn't want to stand around and gawk or anything, but in the time I spent in the village and especially in all the outlying areas I saw an entirely different way of life.intermedius wrote:Just stunning... really amazing area with so much beautiful culture.
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Urdu, huh? During my time in Kashgar (a little town on the Silk Road in the almost 100% Muslim province of Xinjiang), the only four Westerners studying Urdu there in were all CIA rookies.
I'll be following your posts now with heightened interest
Love the tuberculata!
I'll be following your posts now with heightened interest
Love the tuberculata!
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Interesting stuff from a beautiful area. I think your second Invert is a Robber Fly.
Good luck on your chosen career path
Good luck on your chosen career path
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Ha - way to stereotype me! In reality, Hindi and Urdu are virtually the same language, just with an occasional extra word and different written alphabets. And I'm not going to learn the Urdu alphabet anytime soon. But when you're on the streets talking to normal people, you need to know something of both languages or communication will be more awkward.
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Well, I'll be....I had no idea! And I run a translation agency! <goes off in search of a flail>jonathan wrote: Hindi and Urdu are virtually the same language, just with an occasional extra word and different written alphabets.
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Dang Jonathan...If you were any further away... you'd be closer... Cool post. Just the thought of a long trek through remote mountains on the other side of the world is amazing.... jim
- MaartenSFS
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Beautiful location, Johnathan. My experience in China has been exactly the same. Those megacities are evil. I try to get out at least once a week, but it's hardly enough. India looks to have a better-preserved culture, though. What language are you studying and why?jonathan wrote:Ha - way to stereotype me! In reality, Hindi and Urdu are virtually the same language, just with an occasional extra word and different written alphabets. And I'm not going to learn the Urdu alphabet anytime soon. But when you're on the streets talking to normal people, you need to know something of both languages or communication will be more awkward.
- intermedius
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Ashoka Captain and Whittaker 2005 I believe. On average they are found at around 1,250-2,000 meters. Also from the ICUN red list. I cannot be sure however. There's a lot of montane species in the himalaya region. If on the central region, Tibetanus would be an awesome find.
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
intermedius wrote:If on the central region, Tibetanus would be an awesome find.
I forgot to mention - my friend whose house I was staying at got bit while raking leaves last year. She never saw the snake in the leaves, but from the location and symptoms I think it is fairly likely that it was a Himalayan Pit Viper (Gloydius himalayanus). I spent a lot of time looking for them in my week there but didn't find any. I also heard several community members talk about the large green snakes in the area, which I think from their descriptions were probably Chrysopelea.
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Maarten - we're currently informally studying Hindi/Urdu (mostly by just talking to people on our own), doing the tourist rounds of various cities to get a feel for where we might like to live long-term in the future, and learning everything we can about the people and culture by being here. Our long-term goal is to make a permanent move next year to do service alongside the poor here, hopefully with a local NGO or something similar.
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Very, very laudable, Jonathan. You're an example to us all. I sometimes wish I were less shallow...Our long-term goal is to make a permanent move next year to do service alongside the poor here, hopefully with a local NGO or something similar.
- intermedius
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Chrysopelea does not get that high (above 2000+ meters). They prefer lowland rainforest and jungle further south and to the east (Assam and the Western Ghats). My guess is that they are seeing Ptyas nigromarginata. They tend to live in those hilly regions, and are common near those elevations/regions in the foothill/Yunnan-Tibetan region of India and Nepal. Keelbacks are also cool to find in that region. They also tend to get high in altitude (2000-4000 meters.) If you have a chance to get into the Tibetan region, Thermophis would be a great species to record. Assam also has amazing (but dangerous) snake diversity. Kraits and Trimeresurus are everywhere Viridovipera for those who still follow the 2005 code. I would strongly suggest trying to get a copy of Ashok Captain's "The Snakes of India" or "The Herpetofauna of Nepal". Not to easy to come by, but extremely worth the price and they have unlimited knowledge of all Asian Herpetofauna.jonathan wrote:intermedius wrote:If on the central region, Tibetanus would be an awesome find.
I forgot to mention - my friend whose house I was staying at got bit while raking leaves last year. She never saw the snake in the leaves, but from the location and symptoms I think it is fairly likely that it was a Himalayan Pit Viper (Gloydius himalayanus). I spent a lot of time looking for them in my week there but didn't find any. I also heard several community members talk about the large green snakes in the area, which I think from their descriptions were probably Chrysopelea.
Good Luck,
Justin
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
What, Viridovipera has been moved back to Trimeresurus??Viridovipera for those who still follow the 2005 code.
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
You definitely may be right - I don't put a great deal of stock in after-the-fact descriptions by non-herpers. But I should add that the whole place is basically on a sidehill, so there are major elevation changes. Since I don't know exactly where the Chrysopelea sightings happened, they may have been below 2000 meters, though it wouldn't have been a great deal below that.intermedius wrote:Chrysopelea does not get that high (above 2000+ meters). They prefer lowland rainforest and jungle further south and to the east (Assam and the Western Ghats). My guess is that they are seeing Ptyas nigromarginata. They tend to live in those hilly regions, and are common near those elevations/regions in the foothill/Yunnan-Tibetan region of India and Nepal. Keelbacks are also cool to find in that region. They also tend to get high in altitude (2000-4000 meters.)
I just saw two keelbacks yesterday (currently at a much lower elevation in Bihar).
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Linguistics, herpetology and asia seems to go hand in hand - what a dissertation topic:) I am also a translator and teacher.
You mention the close relationship between Hindi and Urdu - I saw a linguist on telly that knew hindi, he found out he could understand and be understood by Roma speakers.
You mention the close relationship between Hindi and Urdu - I saw a linguist on telly that knew hindi, he found out he could understand and be understood by Roma speakers.
- intermedius
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
The main problem is with the Cryptelytrops genus because one of the debatable Nominal Species of Trimeresurus was moved as the type species to the said genus. This does not follow The Code, and somewhat screwed up the taxonomy of the complex. It is a complicated process mainly based somewhat on opinion and how people interpret the data. Nowadays to please both opinions, I like to use Trimeresurus (Viridovipera) whenever I come across a photograph of an Green Pit-ViperHans Breuer (twoton) wrote:What, Viridovipera has been moved back to Trimeresurus??Viridovipera for those who still follow the 2005 code.
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
You're shattering my world. What about Viridovipera stejnegeri?
- intermedius
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Hmmmm sidehills... Well it all depends on what type of biomes were in those areas, and where you are located. I would then have to go with Ahaetulla or Pytas. Chrysopelea is just too rare in that region, and combined that it is a high elevation, its like finding diamonds in the sewers.jonathan wrote:You definitely may be right - I don't put a great deal of stock in after-the-fact descriptions by non-herpers. But I should add that the whole place is basically on a sidehill, so there are major elevation changes. Since I don't know exactly where the Chrysopelea sightings happened, they may have been below 2000 meters, though it wouldn't have been a great deal below that.intermedius wrote:Chrysopelea does not get that high (above 2000+ meters). They prefer lowland rainforest and jungle further south and to the east (Assam and the Western Ghats). My guess is that they are seeing Ptyas nigromarginata. They tend to live in those hilly regions, and are common near those elevations/regions in the foothill/Yunnan-Tibetan region of India and Nepal. Keelbacks are also cool to find in that region. They also tend to get high in altitude (2000-4000 meters.)
I just saw two keelbacks yesterday (currently at a much lower elevation in Bihar).
- intermedius
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Hmm... well that would probably be the same thing as the rest of the complex. Ovophis and Garthius as well as Protobothrops has never been changed . I totally agree with the decision to leave them be since look at their morphology compared to the other Trimeresurus. However, it is up to the person to decide whether the data of any revision is legit or is just pointlessHans Breuer (twoton) wrote:You're shattering my world. What about Viridovipera stejnegeri?
(ahem... Bothropoides).
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Thanks! I can publish my book without TOO much guilt then
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
Hmmm...I think Ptyas is most likely then. From the one highly-observant person who told me about her observation in detail, I am certain that it was not Ahaetulla. The other people just more generally spoke of seeing "the green snakes" most often.intermedius wrote:Hmmmm sidehills... Well it all depends on what type of biomes were in those areas, and where you are located. I would then have to go with Ahaetulla or Pytas. Chrysopelea is just too rare in that region, and combined that it is a high elevation, its like finding diamonds in the sewers.
- intermedius
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
I cant wait to see the finished product Hans. Sounds like an amazing anthology of all your stories.
- intermedius
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
On the other hand, it depends what area you are in. Is this the Assam region you are talking about?jonathan wrote:Hmmm...I think Ptyas is most likely then. From the one highly-observant person who told me about her observation in detail, I am certain that it was not Ahaetulla. The other people just more generally spoke of seeing "the green snakes" most often.intermedius wrote:Hmmmm sidehills... Well it all depends on what type of biomes were in those areas, and where you are located. I would then have to go with Ahaetulla or Pytas. Chrysopelea is just too rare in that region, and combined that it is a high elevation, its like finding diamonds in the sewers.
Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
intermedius wrote:On the other hand, it depends what area you are in. Is this the Assam region you are talking about?jonathan wrote:Hmmm...I think Ptyas is most likely then. From the one highly-observant person who told me about her observation in detail, I am certain that it was not Ahaetulla. The other people just more generally spoke of seeing "the green snakes" most often.intermedius wrote:Hmmmm sidehills... Well it all depends on what type of biomes were in those areas, and where you are located. I would then have to go with Ahaetulla or Pytas. Chrysopelea is just too rare in that region, and combined that it is a high elevation, its like finding diamonds in the sewers.
No - western Uttarakhand.
- intermedius
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Re: Foothills of the Himalayas
May be a larger Keelback then. Pytas and all of the other Trinket species live on the eastern half of India and towards the south, but there are a few that reach that area. Only real way to be sure is to find one. .