A question and a story (kind of long).

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DaveR
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A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by DaveR »

First...my question. Next year (2013) I'm planning to visit my son and his family in the SoCal area (Fillmore, near Ventura). I'd like to plan the two week trip to coincide with good herping weather so that my son, my 12-year old grandson, and I can have some fun and take 2-3 mini-expeditions. Some of my best herping memories are when my son was young, and he still loves these outings evcen though he isn't hardcore like his dad. He does, however, have a great appreciation for wildlife and nature - which he is passing on to his own son. Anyway, what months would you guys suggest for potential visits to areas like Anza Borrega, Joshua Tree , etc. We just want to see some interesting areas and wildlife. Absolutely no collecting...just pictures. We'll take it easy and we'll be safe - probably relatively easy hikes and road cruising ...and we'll sleep in the comfort of a motel. Thanks for suggestions.

My story:

I've herped around the US quite a bit (from my life-long home in western NY), and made my first trip to SoCal (San Diego) in 1978. Scored my first southern pacific, red diamond, sidewinder and assorted smaller colubrids. Been back MANY times but missed out on ANY kings, gophers, or rosys. My excuse for these misses is that all my trips were primarily family-related events (e.g. weddings, etc.). In 2003, I visited my son (who moved out to California to attend college). I had a rental car (Ford taurus) and we took several excursions to herp and sight see. On one of these trips we drove to Palm Springs then on to Joshua Tree NP. I'm a Probation Officer in New York State and I had my badge and ID on a lanyard around my neck - I did not carry my firearm. My son was a Santa Paula police officer and he had his badge/ID as well as his .40 caliber Sig Sauer in a fanny pack on his waist. Im our rental vehicle we had maps, flashlights, a Garmin GPS device, a digital camera, a few field guides, bottled water, first aid kit, and some power bars - absolutely NO collecting eguipment. No bags, sticks, clamps, nooses - NOTHING. Upon entering JTNP from the interstate, we immediately stopped at the first visitor center to check in, introduce ourselves, obtain maps/rules/guidlines, and to meet any rangers available. It was a quiet weekday, very hot and sunny (it vwas June), and we were able to speak to a group of 3 rangers (including an officer) to ask about the park. We told them we wanted to see some interesting flora and fauna, especially herps/snakes, and that we planned on spending @ 18 hours in the park - leaving sometime after midnight to return to out motel on the interstate. We introduced ourselves as fellow law enforcement professionals and made them aware that my son was carrying a firearm - which was not a problem. They were great...very helpful and cordial. We made small talk about our jobs, animals, etc. and they actually offered some suggestions on finding animals. I asked them about the protocol should we find a tortoise or a rattler on the road - asking if I could prod the critter safely off road w/o it being an issue. They said to make sure I used a "long stick" if it was a rattler. They wished us luck and we were off.

We spent the rest of the day driving through the BEAUTIFUL park, occasionally stopping to play around on the incredible boulders and rock formations that were everywhere. It was much to hot for animals to be out, but we did run into 3 more rangers who were on patrol. We socialized with them a little and told them about our plans for that night - slow road cruising for photo opportunities with herps. They said it should be a slow night with regards to traffic. Again...no problems.

Finally it was dusk, then nightfall. We slowly drove the main park roads, staying off all unpaved routes. We began to see a few geckos but the temps were still pretty high. I was not optimistic about seeing much - just too damn hot. Finally we saw it...the unmistaken movement of a medium sized crote. We stopped right on the road. It was an open, flat stretch with great visibility in both directions...plus we didn't want to run the risk of damaging any desert flora. Beautiful panamint rattler - my (our) first. About 24-30" long and very docile even with the heat. No rattling. We took a few pictures and watched as it crawled off the road. We never even had to touch it. The night was a success. We were very tired and decided to head slowly to the motel to crash.

We made a few more quick stops for some small creatures, usually geckos. As we were near exiting the park, we stopped once more for a gecko. I sat behind the wheel of the Taurus while my son stood in the headlights taking one more picture. All of a sudden, a National Park Service SUV came OUT OF NOWHERE (to this day, i'll never figure out where it came from...I'm a very observant person) and lit us up like a christmass tree. A voice on a loudspeaker blared "DO NOT MOVE. SHOW ME YOUR HANDS."

I put both my hands on top of the steering wheel with my fingers splayed so he could see my hands/fingers clearly. My son (still in front of the Taurus right in the glare of the headlights) placed both his hands on the top of his head and clearly shouted 'I'm a police officer with the Santa Paula Police Department and I have my service weapon in the fanny pack on my waist."

The next thing I saw was a pistol aimed at my head from outside the open drivers window. The ranger then nervously shouted at me, and my son to not move. He slowly advanced on my son all the while menacing him with his firearm. When I attempted to ID myself as a probation officer I was told to shut up. I watched as the ranger reached over to fumble for the fanny pack release at my sons waist. My son was very cool and calm - allowing the ranger to remove the pack. After securing the pack in his SUV, I was ordered out of the Tauruis where we were instructed to produce ID. [Sidenote: this guys tactics were aweful and largely unneccassary. I serve Warrants in my department and have made many arrests, cleared houses/rooms, done searches, done dynamic entries, and have extensive active shooter training...he really would have been in trouble if we were bad guys). After having our IDs checked, he proceeded to grill us about out intent and said he thought we might be animal poachers. He really gave us a hard time despite our overly polite and compliant demeanor - we just wanted to get out of there. He said he was debating about writing us up for using artificial light to catch reptiles. We allowed him to search our vehicle. Forget professional courtesy, or accepting the truth about our activities...this guy jerked us aroung for 45 minutes. I'll never understand why he behaved like an a-hole. I started to get pissed (but hid it) and asked him how does a citizen enjoy the wildlife of JTNP when so much of it is nocturnal, demanding the use of artificial lighting. He never answeed me and I gave up. He "allowed " us to leave with a stern warning. All the way back to our motel, we were dumbfounded at the way we were treated - spoiled an otherwise nice day.

HERE'S THE BEST PART; I returned to Rochester NY (and work) the next week. One night I posted an inquiry on the 'field collecting" forum on "not allowed" asking in a very general way if others had any problems dealing with rangers, police, or personnel in any parks or reserves. I did NOT give any identifying information such as the state, the park/reserve - nothing. I did not describe the encounter and the ONLY identifying information was my user name (DaveR) and my home location (Rochester NY). During the work day I received a page over the loudspeaker for an important call. Imagine my suprrise when Ranger Smith (not his real name) was on the other end. He was EXREMELY pleasant and said he was calling to inquire why I was upset about the previous week's incident!! my first thought was 'How the F___ does he know how pissed I am?" Then it dawned on me...he read the post on Kingsnake, and probably lurks on that site (and others) to get intelligence on collecting and poaching. It's a good idea...I do it myself at work with things like Facebook. I told Ranger Smith that I WAS angry about how we were treated especially because we tried to cover all bases ahead of time, because we were doing nothing inappropriate or illegal, because we are law-abiding repectful human beings, and I told him that ANYONE would be upset if they had a pistol pointed at their head and would be doubly pissed seeing a pistol pointed at their son's head. HERE'S THE KICKER. Ranger Smith calmly replied 'What are you talking about Mr. Riley...I never drew my firearm." Then it dawned on me. While monitoring Kingsnake, he saw my post, recognized my name, and became worried that I might file a complaint. I'm SURE he either did not document the job card accurately or at all, and was worried that the job might be scrutinized. He kind of gave a half-assed apology for his heavy handedness stating that he was on patrol alone and frequently has to deal solo with drunken/druggie campers, or intoxicated marines based at 29 Palms. I listened but I still let him know I was disappointed that we were treated that way, and that Ihis behavior reflects on ALL law enforcement. He never admitted to drawing his weapon...I don't expect he ever would.

Thanks to all those readers whose lives are so boring that they read this War and Peace rivaling epic.

Remember my first question. When's the best time to find SoCal herps? Also, I won't turn away any PMs or any specific info. Thanks again.
SnakeDude
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by SnakeDude »

wow, what a trip :) yeah of course the park rangers mean well, but I have NEVER experienced one that doesn't act like he/she wants to put me in the slammer...especially at yellowstone and the grand canyon.

congrats on the panamint rattler :thumb:

-Ian
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Ribbit
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by Ribbit »

Oops, meant to PM.
jimoo742
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by jimoo742 »

I started to get pissed (but hid it) and asked him how does a citizen enjoy the wildlife of JTNP when so much of it is nocturnal, demanding the use of artificial lighting. He never answeed me and I gave up.

They don't care about this. I was told in multiple places (the harshest being Big Bend) that photography with a flash or using a flashlight to look at an animal is harassment and I was encouraged to go to another location if that is what I wanted to do.

Total bummer as I love the NPs and I have been a long time member of the NPCA.
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-EJ
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by -EJ »

You've met the wrong LEOs. I've never met one who was not respectful and actually helpful. Many come to mind... in West Texas, SoCal, Pine Barrens, NJ and more.
SnakeDude wrote:wow, what a trip :) yeah of course the park rangers mean well, but I have NEVER experienced one that doesn't act like he/she wants to put me in the slammer...especially at yellowstone and the grand canyon.

congrats on the panamint rattler :thumb:

-Ian
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-EJ
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by -EJ »

This actually happened to me twice on S2. Weapons were not drawn but the loud speakers came on... Both stories are really cool before and after the fact. Both experiences went pleasantly well.

I'm willing to bet you know people who take the job only to be in charge.

I don't know if I would have asked for a badge number or not... probably not.

In 40 years of herpin... I've not encountered the AH... yet.
DaveR wrote:My story:...
.
jimoo742
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by jimoo742 »

-EJ wrote:You've met the wrong LEOs. I've never met one who was not respectful and actually helpful. Many come to mind... in West Texas, SoCal, Pine Barrens, NJ and more.

In National Parks?
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-EJ
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by -EJ »

All state parks but I have herped Joshua Tree and the Mojave without incident... snake hooks and all although I've never run into LEOs in those areas. It had to have been at least 10 or 15 occurances.

Deleware Watergap... that's another one... no problems.
jimoo742 wrote:
-EJ wrote:You've met the wrong LEOs. I've never met one who was not respectful and actually helpful. Many come to mind... in West Texas, SoCal, Pine Barrens, NJ and more.

In National Parks?
jimoo742
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by jimoo742 »

I've done Mojave, didn't see a soul, but that is a reserve.

Haven't done JT myself, but in general the LEOs I've met in other NPs have been anything but helpful.

State Parks are totally different animals.
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-EJ
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by -EJ »

One of my encounters involved USFW coming to my house the day after my stop in Anza Borrego State park.

Again... I consider myself lucky.
jimoo742 wrote:I've done Mojave, didn't see a soul, but that is a reserve.

Haven't done JT myself, but in general the LEOs I've met in other NPs have been anything but helpful.

State Parks are totally different animals.
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chris_mcmartin
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by chris_mcmartin »

The last time I was in BBNP's visitor center (not the main Panther Junction one, but the one shortly after entering the north gate), they had the 1996-ish "Operation Rockcut" article prominently displayed. This was close to 10 years ago, but well after the whole story had been determined to be erroneous (and after snakes said to be from outside the park were released IN the park).
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BillMcGighan
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by BillMcGighan »

How old was the ranger, Dave? Old enough to know better?

I’ve always respected rangers and wildlife officers who have to enforce laws in the wilds, often with known armed hunters, but, being prepared with your weapon, doesn’t mean being unsafe or threatening.



In 2010 on some SE Florida roads, I was putzing around after dark, driving slowly, making sudden U-turns, erratic stops and starts; i.e. normal suspicious herping behavior.

I saw a dirt road next to a canal and drove on it. Saw only toads, so I turned around at a gated side road, and headed back for the pavement.

Of course, my luck was that this road was under surveillance by a drug force, with several recent trafficking arrests in the area.
Sure enough, a police stop… Not the type where you sit there with your hands on the steering wheel, mentally preparing to get your license and registration… Nooooo

The type where spot lights are on, show hands, step out of the car, hands in the air, backup arrives, frisk, interrogation, calls to verify my story to my LEO son, and finally, apologies for the inconvenience from some very professional LEOs, with a warning that I picked a “very dangerous place” to herp.

Point is, that there was no badge heavy attitude. Everyone was professional.

I may have had an AR15 trained on me from somewhere in the bushes, but there were no threatening gestures with a pistol to my head. (The deputy did not have a bullet in his shirt pocket. ;) :lol: )
All were respectful and professional.
SnakeDude
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by SnakeDude »

wow, what a trip yeah of course the park rangers mean well, but I have NEVER experienced one that doesn't act like he/she wants to put me in the slammer...especially at yellowstone and the grand canyon.
ok i take it back...there are definitely a lot of park rangers that are nice, respectful, and profesional :) i just have had bad luck with them i guess...

-Ian
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lateralis
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by lateralis »

If this story is factual, a phone call to park headquarters should have been made and a meeting with the warden in question, as well as his supervisor, requested.

This type of thing should not be tolerated in our NP's. Ever...
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-EJ
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Re: A question and a story (kind of long).

Post by -EJ »

That was my point about asking for a badge #... it would most likely snowball against you... but could work.
lateralis wrote:If this story is factual, a phone call to park headquarters should have been made and a meeting with the warden in question, as well as his supervisor, requested.

This type of thing should not be tolerated in our NP's. Ever...
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regalringneck
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rxr; a possibly whack't out NPS ranger ...

Post by regalringneck »

... yeah ... i have trouble w/ this one too ... tho if ya tune in & watch cally wardens hamming it up on wild justice ...hoo knows mebbe another case of life imitates art!
Pointing a gun at someones head tho is a serious bidness & w/o a specific threat; it is a felony, and w/ a cal peace officer in the vehicle ... out in the middle of nowhere ... like the onion field .... uhhh ... we trained for chit like that, so for robo ranger to still keep the gun in his hand after being advised of this can be near suicidal ...
Then the ranger being so stupid as to call the poster later at work ... & purportedly lie about what happened ... i cant go there .... ive worked w/ alot of normal & a few dimbulb rangers, but none full on stupid :p

... so here we have 1 version of what might of happened out there, that leaves 3 more; the 2 other players & then .... the truth!

... lastly ... i'd suggest the poster's son has a professional duty to followup on this entire event, protect the public by getting this poor sod into a job he can handle.

John Gunn
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-EJ
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Re: rxr; a possibly whack't out NPS ranger ...

Post by -EJ »

Had that happened to me... I probably would have contacted a lawyer after the fact.
regalringneck wrote:... yeah ... i have trouble w/ this one too ... tho if ya tune in & watch cally wardens hamming it up on wild justice ...hoo knows mebbe another case of life imitates

art!
Pointing a gun at someones head tho is a serious bidness & w/o a specific threat; it is a felony, and w/ a cal peace officer in the vehicle ... out in the middle of nowhere ... like the onion field .... uhhh ... we trained for chit like that, so for robo ranger to still keep the gun in his hand after being advised of this can be near suicidal ...
Then the ranger being so stupid as to call the poster later at work ... & purportedly lie about what happened ... i cant go there .... ive worked w/ alot of normal & a few dimbulb rangers, but none full on stupid :p

... so here we have 1 version of what might of happened out there, that leaves 3 more; the 2 other players & then .... the truth!

... lastly ... i'd suggest the poster's son has a professional duty to followup on this entire event, protect the public by getting this poor sod into a job he can handle.

John Gunn
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gbin
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Re: rxr; a possibly whack't out NPS ranger ...

Post by gbin »

regalringneck wrote:... yeah ... i have trouble w/ this one too ... tho if ya tune in & watch cally wardens hamming it up on wild justice ...hoo knows mebbe another case of life imitates art!
Pointing a gun at someones head tho is a serious bidness & w/o a specific threat; it is a felony, and w/ a cal peace officer in the vehicle ... out in the middle of nowhere ... like the onion field .... uhhh ... we trained for chit like that, so for robo ranger to still keep the gun in his hand after being advised of this can be near suicidal ...
Then the ranger being so stupid as to call the poster later at work ... & purportedly lie about what happened ... i cant go there .... ive worked w/ alot of normal & a few dimbulb rangers, but none full on stupid :p

... so here we have 1 version of what might of happened out there, that leaves 3 more; the 2 other players & then .... the truth!

... lastly ... i'd suggest the poster's son has a professional duty to followup on this entire event, protect the public by getting this poor sod into a job he can handle.

John Gunn
John, please check your PMs!

Gerry
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