Canon Bodies

Photography knowledge exchange.

Moderator: Scott Waters

Post Reply
MonarchzMan
Posts: 341
Joined: September 8th, 2011, 6:12 pm
Location: Oxford, MS

Canon Bodies

Post by MonarchzMan »

I am looking to upgrade from my Pentax to a Canon probably within the next few months (depends largely on what my plans develop into for the summer), and I've been strongly considering the 7D, but the 5D Mark II has also been tempting me. As best as I can tell, though, the differences between the two bodies seem to be minor (speedlight, MP, lens compatibility).

I wonder if the differences are worth the $1000 difference in price. I also wonder if it is worth holding off and saving money for the next model. I know both of those came out in 2009, so I would guess that Canon is due for some new models this year. There are a few things I'd like to have on a body that neither of the two bodies seem to have that will probably come with new models.

So am I missing something between the two bodies? It actually seems as though the 7D is better for the reason that there is a wider range of lenses it is compatible with (according to my camera shop). But I do know that many professionals use the 5D Mark II (and it is even used on professional filmography).

Unfortunately, both take the Compact Flash cards, and I have all SD cards. It'd be nice to keep it to that format, but looks as though that won't happen, at least with these two bodies.

Thoughts?
User avatar
Kevin Price
Posts: 421
Joined: October 13th, 2010, 9:42 am
Location: So. California
Contact:

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by Kevin Price »

The two cameras are very different, though they look similar. The 5D MkII is a full frame camera, meaning that its sensor is the same size as a piece of 35mm film. The sensor is the same one found in Canon’s top of the line 1Ds MkIII camera. There is no “crop factor” with lenses used with this camera. The 7D has an APS-C sized sensor and is smaller than the 5D MkII’s. The 7D can use any lens the 5D MkII can, but it can also use Canon’s EF-S designated lenses. The 5D MkII cannot.

The advantages of the 7D:
High shooting rate at 8 frames per second (FPS). Good for sports and where you need to shoot multiple frames quickly.

Excellent focusing system, the most advanced in a non 1D body. Manual focus point selection with selectable zone, single, and spot focus.

Built-in E-TTL wireless flash control. With its pop-up flash raised, the 7D can control an unlimited number of compatible Canon EX Speedlite flashes. The pop-up flash can even be turned off to eliminate unwanted frontal lighting.

100% optical viewfinder. What you see is what the camera will record. In the viewfinder are user selectable electronic screens showing grid, thirds, all focus points, or nothing at all. Previously you would have to manually change the focusing screens inside the viewfinder if you wanted to change something, and you had nowhere near the options that come built-in with this camera.

Disadvantages:
Low light shooting is nowhere near as good as the 5D MkII. The 5D has much better high ISO performance than the 7D.

Not a full frame sensor if that is want you need / want.

The advantages of the 5D MkII:
Full frame sensor. This allows much more room for each pixel within the space on the sensor. The 5D has 21 megapixels versus the 7D’s 18. Seems pretty even until you realize that the sensor size difference between the two cameras is large. Canon has crammed in a lot more mp’s onto a smaller sensor for the 7D. They have improved how each pixel gathers light, but it is the reason the 5D is better at low light shooting.

Image quality is superb.

Disadvatages:
Low frame rate. Not the choice for sports photographers or for those who need to shoot a lot of images quickly.

Cost. The $1,000.00 increase in price is due to the cost to manufacture the full frame sensor and market supply and demand.

Old focus system taken from the original 5D. Needs to be upgraded to the 7D level.

No on-board flash. Sometimes that’s all you have available and it’s nice to know it’s there. Not an option with the 5D MkII.

Canon most likely will have a replacement for the 5D MkII in March or April. That’s the rumor anyway. The 7D is not likely to be upgraded this year. Canon has been putting in a lot toward the new 1DX and upgrading some of their lenses. There has been a rumor of a 3D that’s been circulating on the web for a little while now, but it is more myth than rumor.

I was recently looking to buy either one of these cameras and I really wanted the 5D MkII. Once I spent some time with the 7D it helped change my mind. The 7D’s focusing system is really that much better. I always manually select my focus points in the camera when shooting herps and this focus system is the best I’ve used, hands down. I also shoot my daughters water polo and swim meets, so having a higher frame rate was important to me in that regard. The wireless control of my flashes was also a big contributor to me deciding on the 7D. I love experimenting with various off camera lighting, but I was always in manual mode on the flash. Not that big a deal unless you are trying to capture a shot quickly. The 7D’s wireless E-TTL control is awesome. Nikon’s had this for years.

So, I went from wanting the 5D MkII to buying a 7D. The focus system, wireless flash control, and higher frame rate swayed my vote. The $1,000.00 less in price helped as well. I could not justify the extra $1,000.00.

Here are some links to Canon info:
http://www.canonrumors.com/
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/came ... on_3d.html
http://home.planet5d.com/

Hope this helps. Either way, you won’t be disappointed.
JJuLLiAAn
Posts: 121
Joined: April 21st, 2011, 10:15 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by JJuLLiAAn »

I would think about what kind of photography you would like to do, the 7D will extend the focal length of your lenses by 1.6x the 5D will not, the 5D will be able to shoot with film lenses, the 7D will have really good AF, the 5D will not except for the center point, the 5D has better features for the macro, wedding, portrait, and city still life photos, the 7D will be good for the wildlife, racing, sports, macro, and whet ever else you would like to shoot that is fast moving, (The 7D can be used for portraits, wedding, landscapes and anything else that you would like to shoot it just isn't as good for landscape photography because of the 1.6x factor.) hope this helps.
MonarchzMan
Posts: 341
Joined: September 8th, 2011, 6:12 pm
Location: Oxford, MS

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by MonarchzMan »

Thank you both for the comments. I think that if I pursue a more professional route for my photography, I'll get the 5D MkII (or the equivalent), but it sounds as though the 7D will suit my needs for now (and the extra $1000 can be used to get a nice macro lens/super-macro lens/twin flash)...
JJuLLiAAn
Posts: 121
Joined: April 21st, 2011, 10:15 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by JJuLLiAAn »

I would actually suggest you get a used 50D depending on how long before you switch out for the 5D, because if you buy a high dollar body and then get anther high end body even if you sell it to buy the 5D you are going to get less then you paid for it, where as with the 50D you could have it as a backup body.


Edit: here's a link to a 50D on a website that has an amazing community of people, they could even help improve your photography if that is something that you need. http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/ ... D#10246936
User avatar
crocdoc
Posts: 473
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:43 pm
Location: Australia

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by crocdoc »

JJuLLiAAn wrote:the 7D will extend the focal length of your lenses by 1.6x the 5D will not
Not really. If one were to shoot the same scene with the 5D mkII and crop it down, you'd have virtually the same image as that taken with the 7D. It just feels as though it is extending the telephotos, because it is pre-cropped into a close-up.

The other thing to consider here is that both of these cameras do video as well, if you're into video. Film houses use the 5D because of the sensor size. A larger sensor not only means better low light capabilities, but also less depth of field. Unlike still photography, this is a bonus in video because it gives a film-like look.

The differences between these two in video goes beyond the sensor size, for although the 5D mkII has the advantage there, the 7D (which came out later than the 5D mkII) has more options, including a 720p 50fps option (or 60fps option for those of you in NTSC land). That is great for wildlife as it can be slowed down to half speed without any loss in quality, simply by putting it on a 25fps (or 30fps in the USA) timeline.

I use a 7D and love it.
J-Miz
Posts: 373
Joined: October 28th, 2010, 4:26 pm

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by J-Miz »

Hate to be the one to nag, but here goes...

I'd think about developing one hell of a lens arsenal first. For the price of a $2000 camera, you could own a (much) cheaper used body with $1600 or so to spend on glass. As well, lenses keep their value WAY better than camera bodies do.

Nagging aside, I do own a 7D. Great camera, no doubt, and for herps it will suit you VERY well. I feel it isn't a noteworthy performer at higher ISO's but nor is it that bad (especially if you're not looking at your High-ISO shots at 100%). The 5D Mark II is STELLAR at higher ISO's, on the other hand.

A little hard to recommend lenses/bodies, as everyone is different. But just a heads-up that there is a Canon 60D that has similar IQ to the 7D and many of the same neat features. It also uses SD cards (which is why I make mention of it). It is also a bit cheaper than the 7D...probably $300 or so less, which is enough to buy a cool ring flash, lens, etc.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Revi ... eview.aspx
MonarchzMan
Posts: 341
Joined: September 8th, 2011, 6:12 pm
Location: Oxford, MS

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by MonarchzMan »

JJuLLiAAn wrote:I would actually suggest you get a used 50D depending on how long before you switch out for the 5D, because if you buy a high dollar body and then get anther high end body even if you sell it to buy the 5D you are going to get less then you paid for it, where as with the 50D you could have it as a backup body.


Edit: here's a link to a 50D on a website that has an amazing community of people, they could even help improve your photography if that is something that you need. http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/ ... D#10246936
Well, I imagine that whatever I get, I will wait probably 5 years before I get another body, so for the moment and the foreseeable future, whatever body I got would be the body I use for some time, so I figure that I should get the best I can now.
JJuLLiAAn
Posts: 121
Joined: April 21st, 2011, 10:15 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by JJuLLiAAn »

If that is the case I would defiantly go with the better body, but think about if you would like to do wildlife photography or anything fast moving, and this is anther option is to go with Nikon, you could get the Nikon D7000 which has amazing ISO performance and has good AF.
MonarchzMan
Posts: 341
Joined: September 8th, 2011, 6:12 pm
Location: Oxford, MS

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by MonarchzMan »

Heh, I thought about Nikon, but one of the big draws to Canon is the MP-E 65mm... I like shooting insects and spiders as well as herps, so having a super macro could be really fun. As far as I know, no other brand has an equivalent, does it?
fvachss
Posts: 90
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 9:21 pm
Location: Ventura County, CA
Contact:

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by fvachss »

Let's talk herp photography. I own a 5D2 and 7D and have shot scaly critters with both. Though the 7D can produce excellent results I find that I prefer the output of the 5D2 - when I can get close enough to the subject to fill the frame. I can't emphasize that last bit enough. If you are focal length limited, because your subject is too skittish for a close approach or you just don't have a long enough lens then the 7D is the better camera body. Only when you can really get in close (or carry a really big lens around) does the 5D2 work better for wildlife in general (and herps specifically).

There are significant advantages to the 5D2 in dynamic range and noise and in the ability to use wide aperture prime lenses at their full field of view. But none of that matters if you can't frame your subject properly.

To summarize: It'll be easier to take great herp pictures if you just get the 7D. You'll have to work somewhat harder to do the same with a 5D2, but when the work pays off the results with the 5D2 are visibly better.

PS. A factor often used to distinguish the 7D from the 5D2 is it's Autofocus system. While the AF on the 7D really is much more responsive and capable with moving subjects than that of the 5D2 I've found that in my own herp shooting this usually matters less than in general wildlife and bird photography. Others may differ, but I've found that lizards and snakes often freeze on approach thus allowing the slower center-point AF of the 5D2 to work effectively. If you expect to shoot fast moving critters then the 7D in AI Servo mode will be significantly more capable and is another reason to recommend the the less expensive body for herping.

PS2. I also have the MP-E, and while it's a lot of fun I really wouldn't recommend it as a 1st macro lens. Framing, focus and managing depth of field take a lot of practice at magnifications above 1:1 and life will be much less frustrating if you start with a more general purpose macro like any of the excellent 100mm macros around. Just to confuse matters, though, if you do eventually get an MP-E I find that it is a much more flexible lens on the 5D2 than the 7D. On the 5D2 1:1 magnification is large enough to cover most insects and even some smaller herps. 1:1 mag on a 7D gives a maximum subject size of 15 x 22 mm - which is often just a bit too small. On the other end 5:1 magnification on the 5D2 gives a 5 x 7 mm frame - which is plenty small for even pretty tiny critters. I rarely ever shot beyond 3-4:1 on the 7D.
MonarchzMan
Posts: 341
Joined: September 8th, 2011, 6:12 pm
Location: Oxford, MS

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by MonarchzMan »

fvachss wrote:PS2. I also have the MP-E, and while it's a lot of fun I really wouldn't recommend it as a 1st macro lens. Framing, focus and managing depth of field take a lot of practice at magnifications above 1:1 and life will be much less frustrating if you start with a more general purpose macro like any of the excellent 100mm macros around. Just to confuse matters, though, if you do eventually get an MP-E I find that it is a much more flexible lens on the 5D2 than the 7D. On the 5D2 1:1 magnification is large enough to cover most insects and even some smaller herps. 1:1 mag on a 7D gives a maximum subject size of 15 x 22 mm - which is often just a bit too small. On the other end 5:1 magnification on the 5D2 gives a 5 x 7 mm frame - which is plenty small for even pretty tiny critters. I rarely ever shot beyond 3-4:1 on the 7D.
Oh, I'd get the 100mm USM Canon macro lens before I got the MP-E. I would see the general purpose lens as more useful for my purposes, but because I like to shoot insects as well as small herps (e.g., dart frogs), having the MP-E would be quite nice. It's just the availability of that lens that has basically swayed me over to Canon, since Nikon doesn't have an equivalent, nor do the third party manufacturers.
JJuLLiAAn
Posts: 121
Joined: April 21st, 2011, 10:15 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by JJuLLiAAn »

There are other options though, if I remember right you can reverse a 50mm to the front of your macro lens and get 4:1 which is one stop of magnification below the MP-E But I wouldn't choose an entire system on one lens, what I would do is get a used 40D at the time of when you want to buy it, you can get a 40D for around $400-$450. But if you would like to get Canon then you should by all means.
User avatar
Kevin Price
Posts: 421
Joined: October 13th, 2010, 9:42 am
Location: So. California
Contact:

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by Kevin Price »

fvachss wrote
Let's talk herp photography. I own a 5D2 and 7D and have shot scaly critters with both. Though the 7D can produce excellent results I find that I prefer the output of the 5D2 - when I can get close enough to the subject to fill the frame. I can't emphasize that last bit enough. If you are focal length limited, because your subject is too skittish for a close approach or you just don't have a long enough lens then the 7D is the better camera body. Only when you can really get in close (or carry a really big lens around) does the 5D2 work better for wildlife in general (and herps specifically).


Right on the money. For me, and having shot with both cameras, I went with the 7D and its focussing system. I don't just shoot herps and the 7D focusses far better than the older system in the 5D MkII, at least for what I need it to do. The 5D MkII has the same foucussing system as the original 5D, which is the same as the 40D and 50D. The new version of the 5D MkII is said to have the same focussing system as the 7D has now (or better). You might want to wait and see the specs on the new version 5D MkIII
MonarchzMan
Posts: 341
Joined: September 8th, 2011, 6:12 pm
Location: Oxford, MS

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by MonarchzMan »

Well, this purchase would be several months down the road, I expect. It's dependent on if I travel this summer or not (if I don't, I might put off getting it a little longer just so I can keep on saving). So I will probably be able to wait until the Mark III comes out to see how it compares before I make any final decisions. The faster focus system would be nice since I don't just shoot herps and insects. I would definitely like to get more into bird photography.
User avatar
Natalie McNear
Posts: 1147
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:54 pm
Location: Northern coast of California

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by Natalie McNear »

For those with experience with lots of Canon bodies, would the autofocus of the 5d Mark II be an improvement over that of the Rebel T1i? My Rebel occasionally has a fit while trying to autofocus in low light conditions, and it seems like the 5D Mark II would be at least a modest improvement. For a long time I've had my heart set on the 5D when I do upgrade, mainly because I do a lot of macro photography, and also don't like having to get back 4+ feet to get an entire snake in frame. I rarely photograph lizards or other distant animals, so the crop sensor of the Rebel doesn't really benefit me. But the fact that people describe the 5D's autofocus as crappy (maybe not in those exact words) has me concerned. As long as it's not a step back from my Rebel I don't think I'll mind.
User avatar
Kevin Price
Posts: 421
Joined: October 13th, 2010, 9:42 am
Location: So. California
Contact:

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by Kevin Price »

Natalie,
Realistically, there would be no improvement in the focus system you have now. The focusing system on the 5D MkII was somewhat of a disappointment when it was released. Many thought it would have been upgraded from the 5D.

You brought up a very good point regarding macro shooting and having to move so far back away to get an entire snake in the frame (I'm assuming when shooting with a 100mm macro lens) when using a crop frame camera.

If the new 5D has a focusing system like the 7D or better (1D series), it will be exactly what you are looking for.
User avatar
Brendan
Posts: 435
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by Brendan »

It sounds like most of the pro's and con's have been well explained already. As someone who own's both bodies I can say from personal experience that you can't go wrong with the 7D. Although I enjoy the 5DII in some low light situations I think that the 7D does almost as well and it's focus system is far better. I like to play around with bird photography in the off season and the 7D's frame rate kills the 5DII. In burst mode it's almost twice as fast. I hate the fact that the 5D still has so few auto focus points. The 7D has 19 vs the 9 for the 5D.

In recent years I also find myself using the video features of both cameras (they both make incredible HD video) and the 7D is much easier to switch over to video mode on the fly. When switching back and forth in a situation such as rattlesnake combat that makes a lot of difference.

Here are some recent 7D shots:

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
MonarchzMan
Posts: 341
Joined: September 8th, 2011, 6:12 pm
Location: Oxford, MS

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by MonarchzMan »

Very impressive photos.

It looks like my 2011 tax return will allow me to get a new camera, but I do have a few questions as I start figuring out my priorities. First, according to Canon Rumors, the 5D Mark III could be announced sometime in March (following Nikon's announcement for it's new body) and for sale in April, and I assume it'll have the full sensor like the Mark II. So, given that, I'm trying to figure out what macro lens I should go for, the 100mm or the 180mm. I know that the 100mm is very nice, but with the full sensor, I would have to get closer to the subject than I'm used to (I shoot a 105mm macro with my Pentax). So should I go for the longer lens to accommodate the size of the sensor? I like having some distance between me and the subject so as not to scare off the subject.

I think initially I'd get the body kit, twin flash, macro lens, and possibly an external flash to begin with. I'd like to get a telephoto (looking at the 100-400mm; although it looks like the 400mm is comparably priced and I do like fixed focal length lenses) and wide angle (looking at the 10-22mm).
User avatar
FunkyRes
Posts: 1994
Joined: June 7th, 2010, 6:19 am
Location: Redding, CA
Contact:

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by FunkyRes »

JJuLLiAAn wrote:I would think about what kind of photography you would like to do, the 7D will extend the focal length of your lenses by 1.6x the 5D will not
The focal length does not change.
You can crop a 5D image to get the same effect you would have gotten from a 7D.
JJuLLiAAn
Posts: 121
Joined: April 21st, 2011, 10:15 am
Location: Kansas City, MO

Re: Canon Bodies

Post by JJuLLiAAn »

It doesn't ACTUALLY change the focal length but it is the same effect, which is the advantage over full frame for long focal length shooters because you can focus better because your not that far from the subject which means AF could focus on the eye alot easier.

Julian
Post Reply