Seeking Salamander ID-Great Smoky Mountains

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Bufoborealis
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Joined: June 23rd, 2015, 9:17 am

Seeking Salamander ID-Great Smoky Mountains

Post by Bufoborealis »

Hello everyone-

This is my first post on this forum, so please let me know if I should do things differently, or if there is a different forum on this site that would be better suited to this type of question.

I was camping in the Great Smoky Mountains National Park last week, and did a bit of herping while I was there. However, I am a beginner with all this, and not great at IDing any of the salamanders that I find. I did have a few that were straightforward enough to ID, like Plethodon jordani and Eurycea wilderae. However, I still have a bunch that I am not sure, but I think are mostly Desmognathus. I am mainly looking for IDs on these individuals, as well as any thoughts on how you went about IDing them so that I know better what to look for in the future. Because I am not very good at salamander ID, I would guess that the same species may be represented here more than once, and might just be different age classes of the same species. If that is the case, could you also include how you are aging them? Any thoughts are much appreciated.

I was in Cocke County, Tennessee, at elevations varying from ~2400 feet to ~5400 feet. I will put a bit of info with each photo as well.

I don't think I can attach images, but it looks like I can share links to them. In general, I have additional images of each of these salamanders, and you can find all the images that I have of these salamanders here:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TBheE5meDA

Salamander #1:
Image
This salamander was found under a rock in a spring at ~2400 feet.

Salamander #2:
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This salamander was found under a rock adjacent to the same spring as salamander #1, but was not in any water.

Salamander #3:
Image
This salamander was clinging to a rock face at a waterfall at ~3000 feet. There was water running over and under it.

Salamander #4:
Image
Image
This salamander was found on a rock adjacent to the same waterfall as #3, but was not sitting in water. It was raining at the time.

Salamander #5:
Image
This salamander was adjacent to #4, again at ~3000 feet.

Salamander #6:
Image
Image
This salamander was seen at night on the shore of a large, fast flowing stream at ~2200 feet in elevation. It was raining that night, so I thought it would be a good time to look for amphibians.

I have eight more salamander questions, but I think six is plenty for one post. Hopefully, I can come back to the other 8 salamanders later. Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: Seeking Salamander ID-Great Smoky Mountains

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

Certainly no expert, but here it goes...

6 might be a black-bellied
8 is probably Plethodon cylindraceus. 9 maybe too, but I'm not sure about the spots (is it spotted, or am I using reflection of water drops only...?) and the head shape kinda looks like a grey-cheeked.
10 is a seal perhaps, while 7 surely looks like one.
The others probably include Desmognathus imitator, D. conanti and/or D. ocoee.

I'm including a link to a convenient overview.
http://www.gsmit.org/downloads/Salamand ... mokies.pdf
Bufoborealis
Posts: 4
Joined: June 23rd, 2015, 9:17 am

Re: Seeking Salamander ID-Great Smoky Mountains

Post by Bufoborealis »

Jeroen-Thanks for your thoughts. I went though in a lot more detail, and using other threads from this forum and a key to salamanders of Tennessee (available here: http://fwf.ag.utk.edu/mgray/wfs493/SalamanderKey.pdf ). I agree that there are certainly duplicates, and it looks like I have at least 3 in there that are Seals (D. monticola).

I have gone through all of them, and decided that I don't know three of them still, and was wondering if anyone would mind taking a look. It looks like my photo links from my previous post don't work, so rather than try to figure out why I can't get them to work, I have put the photos in this google drive folder, so you will have to click through to see them. I kept the same numbering as my previous post, as I just moved the photos to a different folder.

Photos:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwPa8 ... kNpNHFDaDA

Salamander #13 was found at ~4500 feet, in Cocke County, Tennessee. I'm not sure what this one is at all.

Salamander #14 was found at ~5000 feet, on the border between Cocke County, Tennessee, and North Carolina. I would think this is an imitator, but I'm not sure.

Salamander #2 was found under a rock adjacent to a spring (but not in the water) at ~2400 feet. I thought this one might be D. conanti, but that species is not known from Cocke County, so I am not sure. Also, given the elevation, I don't think it is D. ocoee, as I think that species prefers higher elevations.

Any thoughts, feedback, comments, etc. on these three salamanders would be very much appreciated. Thank you all for your help!
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kevin h
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Re: Seeking Salamander ID-Great Smoky Mountains

Post by kevin h »

Based off the link in your latest post the first two are Ocoee Salamanders and the last looks like a Northern/spotted dusky salamander. The third could also be a Santeetlah depending on your altitude.
Bufoborealis
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Joined: June 23rd, 2015, 9:17 am

Re: Seeking Salamander ID-Great Smoky Mountains

Post by Bufoborealis »

Kevin-
Thanks for your thoughts! Ocoee seems more variable than I had guessed at the time, so I am glad for the input! As for the third salamander (the one that is labeled as #2), I had guessed something like spotted dusky (=D. conanti), but was concerned as it isn’t found in that area (I don't think there are Cocke County records? It does occur somewhat close to the southwest though).

I found the salamander at ~2400 feet in elevation, which is within the range, but on the low end, for a Santeetlah, at least from what my field guide says (it says Santeetlah are “abundant from 3000 feet to the highest elevations”). It does note that they can periodically occur lower in the park though.

In regards to Northern dusky (=D. fuscus), that was another guess that I had (and it keys to that part of the key in the TN salamander key I linked to in my previous post). However, the Herp Atlas for Tennessee says that the presence of Northern dusky in the park “has been the subject of debate and confusion” and refrains from saying anything about the occurrence of that taxon in the park, though it does note that it occurs outside the park boundary in Cocke County (the county I was in).

Any other thoughts on the third individual?

Thanks!
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kevin h
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Re: Seeking Salamander ID-Great Smoky Mountains

Post by kevin h »

No problem man. I'm now thinking with the info from the county and the elevation that it's a D. fuscus. That's usually too far north for conanti in that region. Duskies can be extremely variable, I've found fuscus north of the French Broad that had solid red blotching down its back. I'm glad to see someone so interested in salamanders on the forum. If you'd ask me I don't there are enough of us.
Bufoborealis
Posts: 4
Joined: June 23rd, 2015, 9:17 am

Re: Seeking Salamander ID-Great Smoky Mountains

Post by Bufoborealis »

Kevin-

Thanks for the feedback! I think I’ll put it down as a D. fuscus. I agree that it wouldn’t hurt for there to be more salamander people. I'm not often in the southeast, but I'll try to post more salamanders here again when I am back in the future! I'm hoping to visit the Appalachians next May or June and try for a hellbender, so I'll post here again then.
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